Subscribe
Details
If the world of business is a sport, entrepreneurs are often the ones making the rules.
That was definitely the case for Ivey MBA ’07 Trent Kitsch, who changed the men’s underwear industry forever with the introduction of Saxx Underwear.
Born and raised in Kelowna, BC, Kitsch has always had the energy, passion, and determination that marks out the best entrepreneurs. Throughout his still young career, Kitsch has managed to not only reinvent age-old products but also score major wins in early, burgeoning industries.
A serial entrepreneur, Kitsch joins the Entrepreneur Podcast, Legends Series, to share his journey of building a brand during his MBA, and how his ability to recognize opportunity has helped him be at the right place, at the right time.
The Entrepreneur Podcast is sponsored by Connie Clerici, QS ’08, and Closing the Gap Healthcare Group, Inc.
Transcript
You are listening to the Entrepreneur Podcast from Western's Morrissette Institute for Entrepreneurship powered by Ivey. In this series, join me Eric Morse as we uncover the stories of our entrepreneurial legends. These Western founders have revolutionized industries, built recognizable brands and added richness to lives across Canada and beyond. Discover their origins, their greatest moments, their deepest challenges, and what makes each of them tick. Welcome to The Legend series. If the world of business is a sport, entrepreneurs are often the ones creating the rules. That was definitely the case for Ivey MBA '06 Trent Kitsch, who changed the men's underwear industry forever with the introduction of SAXX underwear. Born and raised in Kelowna, BC, Kitsch has always had the energy, passion and determination that marks out the best entrepreneurs. Throughout his still young career Kitsch has managed to not only reinvent age old products, but also score major wins in young industries. A legendary serial entrepreneur kit shares his journey of building a brand during his MBA, and how his ability to recognize opportunities has helped him be at the right place at the right time. I always think of entrepreneurs coming from kind of three different pools, I'd say those that kind of know that I want to be an entrepreneur, right? They're looking for opportunities all the time, those that kind of fall into it. Like they're working somewhere, but they see a problem. It's like, oh, somebody ought to fix it, maybe it's me. And then those that, that do it, because that's the opportunity that they have, and the only opportunity they have in front of them. But you strike me as somebody that was I'm looking for an opportunity. So you know, was that part of the family background? Is it part of the culture? I know, Kelsey is an entrepreneur as well, your sister. Tell me a little bit about that.
Trent Kitsch
Yeah, I was raised in a family of entrepreneurs. And my mom was an entrepreneur and my dad was an entrepreneur. And I understand my grandpa was the first taxi cab company in our town in the 20s. And I think I was definitely raised to believe in yourself and to depend on yourself. And we were taught that no one else could give you a pink slip, as my dad would say. But at the same time, obviously you take on a lot of different responsibilities to be the entrepreneur. And I think definitely my raising around the environment I was raised and have a lot to do with it. And then like you say my sister, Kelsey Ramsden, in two time Canadian female entrepreneur of the year... she she put in a good name with kitch to get me in here grease to me and to Ivey a little bit, I think lowest GMAT score probably they've ever accepted. But no, I definitely had a lot to do with it, how I was raised in that environment.
Eric Morse
Okay, I know a little bit more about your background, you were drafted by the Colorado Rockies. So baseball has been a big part of your life as well. Has sports been a part of shaping kind of you know who you are as well in some way?
Trent Kitsch
I think definitely, being an athlete helped me with regards to routine and preparation and focus. And at the same time helped me fail a lot. You know, like, I've struck out so many times in my life and been embarrassed by making errors in front of you know, 10s of 1000s of people. And definitely, I think it had a lot to do with it. And then ultimately with regards to SAXX I think it had so much to do with it because I couldn't have designed sacks without my background in baseball, being a catcher, and all the things I tried to do to protect myself. But yeah, it really helped and I think it still applies today; the athletic background
Eric Morse
Certainly that that perseverance and that willingness to work hard at something right with with never give up. Let's go back to kind of coming into into Ivey and Western and you know, when you came was it I'm looking for an idea was it I just want a background? How do you take this turn?
Trent Kitsch
Yeah, when when I had the kind of moment if I can tell the story may be right...
Eric Morse
I think you should.
Trent Kitsch
Yeah, so it was about three or four days before my second year of the MBA program. And I was out at the Queen Charlotte lodge fishing with my dad. And if you guys know the show, the Deadliest Catch like the big red ocean suits that they wear in this is like day three and if you're hanging out with your parents for you know, any time there's not that much to talk about after like day one so it's quiet on the boat for like literally two days almost. And I was sitting out in the front triangle part of the boat and just the way the suit was kind of pushing the package for a few days was getting into my mind and I just you know, it was uncomfortable enough and I was staring off into the horizon. It was just flat like sea... and I and I just thought myself, how can I reinvent men's underwear to prevent contact and be more comfortable? And I'm just talking to myself in the front of the boat, you know. And then in my mind's eye, I just started drawing the sack side panels, and morphed all the hard jocks and all the things I've been involved in being a bat catcher to protect me into a soft thing. And then so when I got back off the boat, I went back to my little fishing cabin and started drawing it just as you would imagine, kind of on the napkin. And that's where the idea for SAXX was born. And the vision for the side panels was being drawn in my my brain.
Eric Morse
Very cool. You know, I remember you describing I said this on the way over to me, because I was like, I don't I'm not sure I get it, and you go, sliding shorts, but really comfortable. And they'll look good on you ever. That's like, Okay, I kind of get that now. So, Stewart's (Thornhill) here, I think he was probably head of your section, right? In new venture...
Trent Kitsch
Stew and yourself and Dave Simpson, so many really vital entrepreneurs that helped me and inspired me, Bob Nourse... And were big backers of an idea at that time when a lot of people thought it was a bad idea. You know, I had a lot of people when I told them the idea for Saxx the first time they thought it was a joke, they thought it was just a bad idea. But I thought to myself, it's really an experiment. And I want to see if my idea is bad, because I think it's good, right? And so I basically took those drawings. And when I got back to campus, I had to pitch you guys to do the new venture project.
Eric Morse
So it's a it's a course, that we have an Ivey and soon we'll have across campus. We're going to be offering a certificate in entrepreneurship. That'll be taught by the Ivey Business School that open to anyone on campus. And this is kind of the capstone course where you get to put a business plan together. And so trends talking and he ran quickly with that we soon had people from the fashion program out at Fanshawe. That's right. I think we had some of your baseball buddies up here. Yeah,
Trent Kitsch
I basically didn't have any capital, right. But I had the good idea. And I had a tuition receipt for Ivey, and the Royal Bank was giving out student loans rather easily. So I told the Royal Bank that I needed the money for tuition and then allocated most of it to my sax dream. And I have a $20,000 student loan and basically went out to Fanshawe College and told the fashion Dean about my idea. She thought it was a terrible idea. She was not I was basically out there just trying to meet girls. And that could have been like maybe partly true at that time. But I said to her no, I'm very serious. I think it's a great idea. Here's my drawings. You know, I don't know how to sew, I don't know anything about patterns. Could you hook me up with your all star, whoever's your best designer, and just by chance one of her designers had done an underwear project the year previously. So she kind of you know, extended the olive branch and and this really great designer named Cara Megan was kind enough to do the patterns for $1,500. And we'd get together and prototype the idea together literally at the Ivey business building at night. And over the course of about a month we went from no patterns, no idea to a prototype, I would go to lessons at the mall here. And I'd go in there and I'd pick out the softest underwear I could find and it would be pink and flowers. And then I would take that down to Queen Street West on the weekend. I'd be like I need this but in black, you know, and I need this waistband not pink but black. And and then I just basically over the course of a few months made the first 200 pairs. And I folded up the bags and did the Avery label print off in my dorm or my apartment, I guess and set up the table for the first 200 pairs at the Student Union in question. And I sold the first 200 pairs at the Student Union just before Christmas. And then I went away at Christmas and no idea and it was kind of like I said earlier, like an experiment. You know, what do people think? Or do they think it's going to be any good? And then when I got back from Christmas people would be coming up to me on campus. Hey, you're the underwear guy. Could I get a pair of those underwear and that was like, interesting. Okay, yes, you can just no way it isn't. And I had enough money for 400 pairs. So then I made the 400 pairs expanded my distribution from the Student Union to the Student Union and the Ivey building. Tim Hortons parking lots. On the weekend I would dry I'm down and hanging out in front of Lululemon in Toronto because I knew people had a bunch of money coming up. And I would sell pairs and and then I had enough money for 800 pairs. And that's the first kind of evolution of how I got the first you know, 1000 pairs sold
Eric Morse
love it. And it was a, from an outside perspective, a meteoric rise, right. I'm sure it didn't feel that way to you. But so he went from the the new venture project, where, you know, he got a grade for this project. But then he went to the business plan competition, which was a month later, I guess, January when you came back. And then you're on the Dragon's Den, what, how many months later,
Trent Kitsch
basically, yeah, we were we're fortunate enough to represent Ivey well, and we won the business plan competition for Ivey, then we got to go to the National Business Plan Competition. And I pitched the idea there and in the audience was a producer for Dragon's Den. And then they invited me to do the show. So that's how I got on the show and what they think of the idea. Well, the dragons actually, Arlene got it. Arlene offered me a deal. I went in there for 250,000 for 10%. Because that was the post money valuation of 2.5 million. They countered with 500,000 for 10%. You know, so basically, it was, it was it was a great experience. And then we ended up winning the armchair dragon Award, which was a $50,000 prize at the end of the season, for the best product that didn't get a deal. So I remember some promotion going on about that. Yeah, it was amazing. And we filmed the episode. Then I went to China with the help of my classmates, which I would share to all of you, you know, it was so instrumental, having great peers and classmates that helped me as well. And then the episode aired in like, October, and our sales were, you know, single 1000s a day. And then that night, it was like $40,000, and just really was a catalyst for the success that still exists today.
Eric Morse
You've been great at promotion, I think, throughout the years and you did it, you know, how do you do it on low resources? Right. So some of the some of you in the room would have read the story that we ran about Richard Branson, and, and some of you may not know that story, but you should tell that story because it's great.
Trent Kitsch
Well, I was again, just in my apartment one night and I saw Richard Branson was coming to MTV live like the following day, and Richard Branson, someone I've always looked up to read all his books, and so I was pumped. I was gonna meet Richard Branson, or just be like in the same room with him type of thing. And so I did this handwritten letter and did a folded up the sacks really nice in the bag and everything. And then I got some Ivey classmates of mine together, we drove down to Toronto. They start the show, right? Richard Branson is going to come out. It's like a commercial break. One of the producers says, Does anybody have a question for Richard? And I'm like, way out. But yeah. And he's like, What are you going to ask him? And I said, I'm going to ask him about getting boxed out of Heathrow by British Airways. And, and the producers like, Oh, this guy knows something about Richard cool. Here's the mic. So then I had the live mic and I was so pumped in and just waiting for the red light to come on in the red light comes on. And I take off my jacket, which has like the big sacks logo on it. And I tell Richard, you know, speaking of balls and bollocks I have this company that's talking about sacks and given the pitch and then I go up on stage, like I walk over the first row, all the security guards like come right to the edge of the screen, the producers like all mad like right there. And I proceeded to pull the pair out and Richard instead of like getting mad, he takes the pair out and puts them on over his pants and me and Richard Branson go on like this Two Minute riff on underwear and he tells me I'm great at promoting my product. And I'm just like in dream state. And then as I can tell the episode are the segments coming to a close and the security guards are getting closer and and then they close the segment I had already predetermined there was a fire exit like right off the stage over here. So as soon as the red lights off, I just like dropped the mic, jumped over the railing down the fire exit out the door and just kept running.
Eric Morse
Mission accomplished.
Trent Kitsch
But... but I got MTV Live for like three minutes. And it was a great moment. Really, I still have the picture of Branson wearing sacks in my office.
Eric Morse
So yeah, this kind of meteoric rise to that point, but I know it's not. It's not always been easy, and there's been some hard lessons. And I was wondering if you'd be willing to share some of those hard lessons with with the group?
Trent Kitsch
Yeah, uh, you know, I think that what you said earlier 10 year overnight success story is so true and everything takes a lot of hard work. getting smart work, if you can work smarter than harder, that's something that I didn't learn until a little bit later. But I guess one of the main lessons is like when I was selling companies, or when you sell a company, so many people think it's the best moment of your life, and you even think it might be before you do it. And then actually, what you find as an entrepreneur is you might be just a worn out, exhausted human being, who is like mentally and physically at the end of the rope. And I literally, when I sold my first company, like just hung out in the bottom of my pool for like, six months, just like fixing it, and just trying to like, get my energy back, you know, because I think, back to the baseball metaphor, I think entrepreneurship is a lot like seasons. And I treat it like spring training, the season and the offseason. And so when I'm getting ready to go into an idea, I might need to train for three months before I even show up to pitch you, you know, and then now we're in the spring training session, and maybe I get a deal. And then now I gotta go perform. So now I'm in the season, and that can be 10 years, it can be three years, five years, you don't know how long, you're gonna be in that opportunity. And then when you sell the business, you need to build yourself back up. And I would say that's very true.
Eric Morse
I love that metaphor. I think we often kind of paste over how hard it is, and how much hard work has to go into really creating a successful business. And when it's your business, there's also the emotion that's tied up into it. So I get that having to recharge when you after you've sold
Trent Kitsch
and having a support system, I wouldn't be here without Ria, my wife and she was so instrumental in the success of Saxx. She was there from the very start, we've done more business...
Eric Morse
You didn't meet her at Fanshawe did you?
Trent Kitsch
No...and, and so that was something that was very critical to the success, you know, but I would also say to entrepreneurs, it's the reason you're doing it can give you so much motivation, what is the reason why you might be doing something or wanting to do something, and then that can really stoke your fire again, versus just going and doing it step back? Why am I doing this? What's the main reason? And then you can get going forward again?
Eric Morse
Cool. So you're somebody that I think has been ahead of the curve on a number of your businesses. So can you tell us a little bit about how you look at opportunity, and maybe, so after this, I think it was Doja Cannabis, and you sold that to Canopy for a good sum. And now it's Kitsch Wines, which is an ongoing concern and brilliant wines, by the way, if you get the chance. So how do you look at opportunity, Trent?
Trent Kitsch
I think as an entrepreneur, one has to be able to recognize problems. If I had to summarize entrepreneurship in a sentence, it would be problem recognition. So if you can recognize problems, then you're potentially an entrepreneur, and then if you can think about solutions, and create those solutions, then you are an entrepreneur. So I think there's that curiosity piece you spoke to. But I think it's really, firstly about problem recognition. And then once you get through that, and you think about, you know, is there a solution? And then hopefully, many people share this problem, then it could be a big opportunity.
Eric Morse
You've also been early into is, is there something you know, that you've trained yourself, perhaps or when you're looking for those problems? You seem to be early into those industries? Anything to shed light on that? That's a hard one?
Trent Kitsch
No, no, I think it's a great question. And basically, I think when legislation changes in the cannabis example, it creates vacuums of opportunity, where there's no incumbent, there's no brand that already is the Coca Cola of the space. So it can help you look better and move faster, because there isn't those entrenched barriers. So I always am looking at, at what's changing. And I also searched Google news all the time with with things like abandoned, bankrupt, you know, the carbon credit, like anything that's kind of a macro problem, then is just trying to scratch the surface on that and, and explore
Eric Morse
Cool, I know, you and Rio running, you know, Kitsch Wines. But if we were to ask you, what's next, where are you looking? Not that you don't have a lot to do already, and kids are here and everything else, but anything you're looking at or spaces?
Trent Kitsch
Yeah... yeah. Very cool. I'm gonna open it up to questions from the audience who would be thinking about questions, not just yet, I got two more, but be thinking, you know, if you were to go back to your university days, whether it's undergrad or MBA, is there anything that you wish we would have really pushed harder on like, to help you prepare for your entrepreneurial career that we didn't do, and we can get better at maybe? Well, I think the energy transition is such an amazing opportunity. Right now. If I was a young person with limited resources or no resources, I would definitely be getting involved in energy transition, be it electrification, be it you know, carbon credits, those are things that I think are really great future opportunities. I think the opportunity that exists with water is going to be amazing. We're definitely going to see that in our new year. The future. And then I think there's new opportunities that weren't as close to the consumer, as we all are today when I came through. So trying to develop Saks, even in 2007, if I was at the same stage today, I could get to the customer in different ways. Maybe more noise, maybe more competition today, equally. But I think that's also a really unique and amazing opportunity that we all have today is, is I think the power of the brand is diminishing somewhat in return for social proof from people who are experts. So you can build your own brand, and build your own expertise (Direct to consumer). Yeah. Which I think is is, you know, as a brand has always been, but I just think you can get there a bit quicker now. Well, I was just spending the last week with some of my Ivey friends, you know, and I think that's something that I would encourage us all to do better on, I could have done better on when I was here, the school can do better on it. And as all of us, we can do better on it, just getting to know each other more, and really getting interested with what the other people in your class are interested in. We all are in this incredible environment where Ivey, or Western has siphoned down the smartest people in the world, literally. And they are your peers, your classmates, and every one of you has your own amazing special sauce, where you might speak this language, or you might have this background or, you know, your parents might have been in the fashion industry. And so I think everyone just needs to appreciate themselves a little bit more and really mixed with each other and get to know each other and know that in the future, you're going to be doing all these transactions and deals together and you're going to come up together and don't lose touch with each other. That's what I would say is something that I think it'd be great that people can be experts now a lot earlier, I would share that too. Like I still don't know how to sew, I still don't know how to make patterns. But if I tried to maybe I would only be at the Tim Hortons now selling pairs. So I would say just know that you can always hire experts. And I had some really great people that believed in me at certain times. So distance yourself from negative people, if you can, as well, and reinforce and spend a lot of time with people that are supportive and going to pump you up, rather than try to tell you from the sides while they're not doing anything, not for you to try.
Eric Morse
For sure. And you know, it's a community here of a lot of like minded folks. And so getting to know, your peers with an interest in entrepreneurship is a really powerful thing. And you were talking just a little while ago about you never know, you know, 10 years later, you've got somebody from your class that's doing this amazing thing. And, you know, they can help you out in different ways. Or you might even help them out in different ways you haven't even thought of and so it is a great, great advice. If you were to think through your lessons, and I you've been involved with construction as well, and the cannabis industry and now the wine industry, maybe just some lessons, you know, general lessons you've learned over the years.
Trent Kitsch
The thing that sometimes people claim I'm an expert at is marketing and consumer packaged goods. And I would say what I've learned over the years in branding is to be yourself, and your brand is already created. Actually, your brand is your reputation if you're trying to raise money or your brand is your commitment to what you're doing. So I would say that just really personal development is the best way to build your brand. And then visa vie whatever product service you choose to endeavor towards in the future. So I would say that's an amazing lesson to share. I would also say, ask for what you want, you know, Ask and ye shall receive right and so many people don't know what to ask or don't have the words to ask for exactly what they want. So I might want a car right or I might want a 1958 speedster that silver with black leather and a white steering wheel, you know so it's, it's really you want to be specific about you want ask the world for it, write it down, and always try to be tacking in a in a direction, I would say like, you know, we're all setting our sail and we're all going to arrive somewhere in five years. The question is, where are we going to arrive? And then what life have you designed for yourself? So think about it, you know, take the time. And it's a really great experience. If you paint and design that future for yourself.
Eric Morse
I love the idea of engineering your own life instead of letting it happen to you. And you know, too many of us probably do that. So are guilty of it, for sure. All right. Are you okay with questions from the eyes? So I saw one right here. So I'll let you go ahead and start yet. So the question is, how did you prepare for Dragons' Den? And what are some of the things that you could do to make sure you present well when you get there?
Trent Kitsch
So the Dragons tried to tip you off with numbers, right, at least that was their MO back, then they would try to get you on your margins, or try to get you on your numbers and try to make you sweat and chip, you're around. So I just was very prepared on my numbers, there was no question that the dragon could ask me that I wasn't ready to number them back. And I learned that at Ivey in in Bob Nourse's class - don't give a qualitative answer to a quantitative question and vice versa. So if you know your numbers, that is a self confidence that comes in the presentation. And then the qualitative, the more, you know, painting the picture with words is the other part of the presentation. So I would say if any of you are feeling a little nervous about either side of that, in your presentation, nail the numbers, that's like stacking confidence on your... your business. And then the qualitative side will be easy, after you feel comfortable in the numbers. Always try to put the listener in the place, put them in the problem before you tell them the solution. So for Saxx, I would say, you know, have this, have you ever been playing golf and it's, you know, on the 16th hole, and it's 36 degrees out, and all the guys would be like, Okay, I've been there. And then I'd be like, Oh, have you ever been driving in your car for six hours and, and you know, and then the guys would be there. And then I would start to tell them my solution. So if you don't feel comfortable, maybe telling that quantitative side, you can tell them a little bit of defining them in the problem. Or another trick I use is to tell a story. If you know a story, you can tell both of those through story. And then then that makes you feel comfortable. I always feel like presenting is really like storytelling, it's definitely storytelling, and it's singing that first song that you know really well and then the concert is going to be great. You just got to get that first story out and get your comfort up. And it helps me
Eric Morse
I'm gonna give some kudos to Bob Nourse real quick; one of the smartest guys I know. He worked with us for a number of years at Ivey, he was a faculty member but he left to start or grow a company that you might have heard of called the Bombay company. Grew it to over a billion dollars, came back to teach and shared a lot of his wisdom. So he was he was a great guy. Next question is about resilience. And, you know, look, you're you're you're bound to fail when anytime you try to push the envelope and do new things, right. So how do you push through that and keep yourself headed in the right direction?
Trent Kitsch
I think when I hear the word no, I'm basically trying to really listen through the No. And why is the person saying no, and then improve my product or service? Versus sometimes it's almost like people will hear no, and they'll take it personally or they'll say that is the truth. right? And I think that no is closer step to a "yes." Basically, you just heard no now but let's approach that person in three weeks after you've done what they said wasn't good about the product. Now what are they going to say? Then you're like, you know, I took your advice. Here's this great product that you helped me design. Okay, well, now I'm a buyer, versus that person said "no," and now I'm gonna go and give up! Or that person said "no," And they're absolutely correct. Right? And so...
Eric Morse
And sometimes it's redeploy your resources to the next idea, right? Don't don't spend too long. When you keep getting the "no." And you're not able to pass through that or see the real reason they're talking about right?
Trent Kitsch
I think as well, the function of success is probably directly tied to the amount of "no's" you've had in your life. If you've had a lot of "no's," that means you're probably doing things, you're trying things, you're experimenting with things. And I think you know, the best entrepreneur maybe of all time, Steve Jobs talked about that all the time, just you know, trying to polish rocks by making mistakes all the time and going forward versus talking about how are we going to polish these rocks?
Eric Morse
What were your influences perhaps, at university, and secondly,
Trent Kitsch
how to optimize the student experience?
Eric Morse
Yeah, optimize the student experience... staying in school. While you optimize your entrepreneurial opportunities.
Trent Kitsch
You know, to answer the first question, it's very easy. It's Stu (Stewart) Thornhill, that gentleman right up the way here. He was the first investor in Saxx, he gave me $50,000 for 5%. Let's hear it for Stu (Applause). And I would say that that this gentleman has influenced my life in so many positive ways. And he was one of the first investors in Doja, and continues to be a mentor of mine. So Thank you Stu, bottom, my heart, my friend. And I would say that many other professors did as well, you know, Eric, and Dave Simpson, and I found that it was so special that if I had a question or an idea, I could just go up to the second story and talk to a supply chain expert, or talk to someone who had low cost region supply connections. So I would suggest or encourage all of you to really engage with the faculty and the staff. They are so eager to help and you also all have the student veil over you right now where you can also go talk to the CEO of RBC, you know, Western alumni. And, and he's going to talk to you because you are a student at Western or affiliated with him versus, you know, three years from now you're going to be... he'll think something different. But while you're here, you're in this amazing umbrella of incubation and it's not just in these four walls, it's me too. You know, if one of you wants to talk about an idea, I'm going to be open minded to talk to any one of you as well. And I look forward to hearing about all the great ideas in the room. And then to the second piece, I would say I was very active in my hours here. You know, I didn't spend a lot of time not doing anything. I was part of the real estate club, I was part of the MBA hockey team, I was the head of my section, social director. So I was, you know, meeting up with the other sections, social directors, I was definitely influenced by my sister's, you know, example here of how to be a great student and also be part of the community. I remember, we used to do a bunch of like going and picking up leaves and things in the community. So I think that was really important. And then I also was out doing trips, we were going to cyber poziom at Harvard... we were doing all the things that were around. I would looked into going international, when I traveled I'd go to Hong Kong Ivey, I would go to INSEAD in France just because of the relationships that Ivey had. So around the world, you all have access to not just these great entrepreneurs, but also all the great schools that Ivey has chosen to affiliate with. And I have a pretty routine schedule since I was an athlete, I get up, you know, between 530 and you know, or at 530 every day without a alarm clock. I hit the you know, exercise, and then start the day. And basically, I've had a routine for 20 plus years. So I'd say getting in a routine helps entrepreneurs as well.
Eric Morse
For sure, take advantage of the resources and the opportunities that are that are available to you. And I think as a student, sometimes you go, Oh, they won't listen to me, they won't talk to me, they will, like Trent said, now's the time, they will pick up the phone and answer and chat with you. Rather than when you're in industry somewhere and you're just somebody but when you're an alum, when you're a student, and reaching out to especially alum, they're going to talk to you that you know, there's so many so many doors that you can open that way that give it a shot. Take advantage of it. Love it. So the next question sources of motivation.
Trent Kitsch
Yeah, when I was down in LA, the first year in Saxx was like 26,000 in sales, you know, it wasn't a lot of sales, I didn't pay myself any money. And so I was a there's lots of points that are are you're gonna be down. But I carry a what I call my dreams card in my wallet, I have since like 1999. And it's basically a goal setting card is another word for it. And it kind of categorizes the things that I am trying to do with my life. And if I'm ever down, I go to my card, and I write my card when I'm in a good place. And I go to my little place on Knox mountain and I speak to myself, and I say what are the decisions that Trent can make today that future Trent will thank today Trent for, and I just speak to myself and I envision you know, five years down the road three? And what are the things that I want to try to do? So I would encourage all of you to try to write those things down. And whenever you're down and out, you can go to your card and say, you know, I gotta recalibrate my sail. I'm headed here not going back there you know. And so I'd say that's a tool that I've used for for so long and it's really helped and shaped my life probably more than any other thing.
Eric Morse
Cool. So the question is a lot of pressure to take a conventional job, right? For those of you not at Ivey perhaps but conventional job in whatever your field is. And so how do you break free of that and kind of change here
Trent Kitsch
When I came into Ivey, I was planning to be in construction because that's what I had done previously. And that was our family's business. And when I was leaving Ivey, I had an opportunity to join the RBC professional sports management program. So manage pro athletes money, then I had an offer from Ellis Don the construction company to do the construction route. And I basically just wanted to find financial independence, that's always been one of my biggest goals. So I also work backwards from where I'm trying to go. And which of those three doors provided financial independence, and I went entrepreneurship. So I think it's easy to make decisions when you know where you want to go. And then you can say, does this decision get me closer or further away from x? And then you're so right. When I went to Western, it was all about finance, investment banking, and consulting and that's still great. Those are great industries. And you can be an entrepreneur in any one of those as well, I would say, but I was very focused on trying to do my own thing. At that time, I wasn't the smartest person at Ivey by far. But I was definitely one of the hardest workers. And I would put myself against anybody in a competition to work at something, and just pretty persistent. So I'm very confident in my ability to work hard, and stay the course. So that was something I think that people were saying are good entrepreneurial traits. So and then I really just believed in myself, and I knew as a young person, I didn't have a lot of liabilities. So I didn't have a wife or a mortgage, or kids. And I would say, when you're young and don't have some of the other strings to your life, that's the best time to try. So I always knew I could, you know, go back or try one of those other jobs in the future. But I definitely was willing to give myself a chance.
Eric Morse
Very cool. So how do you differentiate between legitimate criticism and negativity? And then how do you? How do you know when it's time to let an idea go?
Trent Kitsch
Okay, well, I'll start on that one, because it's a great question, how do you know when to quit, right? Or what to pivot. So those are two different things. And I always set milestones, which are proof of concept. So I always thought if I could sell 10,000 pairs and get into 200 stores, that is outside the friends and family telling you, it's great when it's average, or I think if you set milestones that are realistic along the path that are reassuring to you that you should go, you know, deeper into this dark, unknown forest is one way that I've been successful in doing that. And then also you can say, Do I pivot? Or do I quit? Those are two different options, right, and neither should be felt to be ashamed about, it could be a great decision to quit on that idea. And two years, three years down the road, a new opportunity came up. So that's something that's happened to me before, I've had lots of failures. The first time I ever scraped together $20,000, me and my friend started a company called Think Media, it was like digital display advertising boards before that was a thing. And we like lived off Little Caesars and we gave it our best, you know, and that was like, it would be the equivalent of 10s of millions of dollars today in that it was like all I had, you know, so that was really an important thing. And I've failed so many times. And and it's really just about where on that milestone, do you want to set the next guide that you should go forward. And you see the best companies in the world do it today, We had a really interesting webinar with Sukhinder Singh (Cassidy) another great alum. And her whole philosophy is like entrepreneurship should be about a portfolio of opportunities, you're going to do a lot of things, and most of them are, are not going to go anywhere. But all you need is that one or two that really take off for you to really have that entrepreneurial dream that you're looking for. So, you know, don't put all your stock in that one idea, but it's probably multiple ideas for your career. And then the the first question, I think the opinion of other people definitely matters. If they're a customer, they're a customer, you've got to listen, but I'm always looking for experts. And then also the best case is if you can get experts to disagree, and you're in the conversation, and then you understand why are they disagreeing? I find that really valuable. So if you can set up that triangle, that's very helpful.
Eric Morse
What book would would you recommend?
Trent Kitsch
Yeah my favorite business book is Purple Cow by Seth Godin. And that's basically the book that I had at my desk as I worked through sacks. And the principle of that is, if you're driving through the, you know, English countryside for three hours, and all you see are black and white cows, they start to fall into the background. And then after a while, you don't even notice the cows, right? And then you come over one hill and there's a Purple Cow in the field. everyone notices that cow and so you as a product or service have to be a Purple Cow. You know, in today's world that's so saturated, and every brand is discount to luxury, segmented, and you know, so I think whatever you're doing, you want to try to be a Purple Cow and start out in your skeleton, how do you design that Purple Cow in your business?
Eric Morse
Very cool. So the role of supply chain transparency?
Trent Kitsch
I think it's really important as early days like in my career, it was Nike getting smoked for not having that, right. And then it's evolved into be at the cocoa that you can buy as fair trade. And so I think you're, you've seen it, and I think it's important to the customer at some level, and then there is how you wish things were. And then there's how things are. And so I feel like you always have to be considerate of that. I live in an optimistic idealist mind and I want everything to be amazing. And I'm not, I'm definitely positive about those things. But you also want to be realistic sometimes. And a lot of customers are sensitive on price. So I would say, in your MVP, if you can figure out what your value is on price, and then maybe even transition it on to the large manufacturer, or you know, balance that risk out. So they are brand is better, because they're working with your branded assured quality, supply chain checked brand. So there's lots of examples of it in different categories. And if you guys are trying to be the you know, blue stamp of that industry or the trusted source, that's great and best of luck to you, and just try to have one really good example of a great company, you helped improve their trust, because that's really what you're trying to sell is trust. So, you know, how do you improve trust... Is the problem. Solve that.
Eric Morse
Let me see if I can get another... in the back!
Trent Kitsch
When you're raising capital, I think it's very important to know what you need again, so write it down and entrepreneurship twice as long twice as much money, so then times it by two, and then look at your cap table and say is that you know, possible? Basically, those are three things I kind of go through every time how much money am I trying to raise? Debt is cheaper than equity is a rule I learned here as a general principle. And so if you can get debt and you're confident in your future, then then try to do that. If you have to sell equity. You know, there's other ways you can do that as well but I've been successful in speaking with high net worth individuals, typically, when I had no capital, how do I raise capital? And I've always felt that no good idea should be denied capital. So if you believe it's a good idea, and it actually is the world will give you that capital, so you've got to keep knocking on the right doors. And then once you become more advanced in capital raising, then you start looking at how do I approach strategic investors right from the start? So what I did with with Doja essentially was write on a whiteboard, what is the dream situation, and we got a $10 million strategic investment from Aphria. And eventually, Canopy bought us, in large part because they didn't want Aphria to have us. So you know, I would say that that's also something I've learned over time is when you're starting out, you know, when I came up to the idea when I when Saxx right? How do you value sacks? It's it's it has no sales, it's a an idea. And I said it's a million dollar idea, because I wouldn't be interested in it if it wasn't, and neither would you, you know. So that was my original pitch to people. And, you know, that's the way I approached it. And I would say the best way also to raise capital is ensure your honesty and integrity is at 10. So if anybody checks out on you, it comes back that you're honest, and then you're Integris. If you've lost money, you can still be honest and Integris. And as we're seeing in the news today, right? Some people who aren't have tragically affected many 1000s of people's future. But I would say that that's something is a character piece as an entrepreneur, if you always keep your honesty and integrity, the reputational value and capital that will flow from that is priceless.
Eric Morse
Couldn't agree more actually, I think it's the one thing you have that you need to hang on to and that you have to count on as an entrepreneur because you need so many people to get behind you and help
Trent Kitsch
And you can take 20 years or a career and you know 1000s of people, and then do one wrong move and it's all gone.
Eric Morse
Well Trent, this has been amazing. I wanted to share a story that we talked about just on the walk over here. So I'm hoping that this is going to happen for one you, but Trent was reminding me that we had Chip Wilson to the school back when Lululemon was just a Vancouver company and they weren't public. They really hadn't expanded out beyond that. And Trent remembers that thinking, "Hmm... I think there's something here I think I could do something like this...
The Entrepreneur Podcast is sponsored by Quantumshift 2008 Alum Connie Clerici and Closing the Gap Healthcare Group. To ensure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player or visit entrepreneurship.uwo.ca/podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.