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This week’s Ivey Entrepreneur podcast features a New Yorker who quit his corporate job and moved to Egypt--all for the sake of the perfect t-shirt. Guest, Rami Helali shares his experience starting KOTN--an ethically sourced t-shirt company that specializes in using a transparent manufacturing process that meets the highest standards in both ethics and quality.
He chronicles the hustle, drive, and determination that it took to grow a brand from a backpack and a dream four years ago, to having a strong online presence in addition to several retail stores in multiple countries today. His insights are applicable to anyone looking to make the jump from employee to entrepreneur and pull it off successfully.
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The Ivey Entrepreneur Podcast is sponsored by Connie Clerici, QS ’08, and Closing the Gap Healthcare Group, Inc.
Transcript
You're listening to the Ivey entrepreneur podcast from the Pierre L. Morrissette Institute for Entrepreneurship at the Ivey Business School. In this series Ivey entrepreneur, and Ivey faculty member Eric Janssen will anchor the session.
Eric Janssen
You quit your dream job to launch a company in an industry that you have no experience in. You work the hardest you've ever worked in your life to source the product, build the brand and launch the website and guess what? You actually get sales rolling in on day one. But then of course you do. They're all from your family and friends. And then day two comes around and crickets. This is how cotton started. Cotton's founder Rami halali worked in the finance industry, it was crushing it but knew his true calling was to be an entrepreneur. This podcast is his story of starting a renowned fashion brand, selling Egyptian cotton tees and partnering with family owned farms and charities in Egypt to do it ethically. Cotton has since grown exponentially and open flagship stores in Toronto and Queen West. And in Manhattan in the heart of Soho. Rami shares the story of how he left a job with no formal plan for how to start the business, how to quit the right way, how to hire your first employees, and even the exact email word for word that he used to get covered by top media outlets like Forbes Vogue, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, and GQ. This story of hustle, learning and growth is inspiring for any entrepreneur, whether you're just starting out and need some motivation, or trying to break through that next level of growth. Enjoy this conversation with my good friend Rami Halali, the co founder of cotton. I'm here with Rami halali. From cotton and Rami, it's good to finally have you back. Yeah, good to be here. excited to have you. So for those that may not be as familiar with cotton, I thought it would be helpful if we start off with what is it that you do?
Rami Helali
Yeah, so cotton is a direct to consumer apparel company. We started online a little over three years ago now, we started with a simple idea that we felt that the everyday essentials, kind of the things that we come in contact with in our wardrobe everyday the T shirts, the underwear, the kind of repeat items, you either had to go designer and pay a lot of money and sometimes the ethics matched or you have to go kind of h&m and kind of throw away clothing. So we just sensed that there was a gap there in the market that needed to be addressed. So we started online with a couple of these products. And since then we've grown to have four retail locations across Canada in the US. And you know, it's still the majority of our businesses online. And we've been very fortunate to kind of grow in that way. But a big part of what we do is actually how we source it, we are completely transparent ethical supply chain from the second the cotton leaves the ground to the final product, we actually work directly with the farm smallholder farms in the Nile Delta in Egypt. Everything we make is made out of Egyptian cotton. We provide direct subsidies and guaranteed prices and kind of work our way through the supply chain with ethical facilities. Until we have the final garment, we kind of call it like mid market price, luxury at a mid market price.
Eric Janssen
Awesome. You done a really good job of telling the story of cotton, I mean it when you look at it on the surface, I remember when you first launched the company, you're thinking t shirt company, how do you how many do we need? How do you differentiate that but the story and what you actually stand for as a company is a huge differentiator.
Rami Helali
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the biggest differentiators for us, I think that the way we approached solving this problem, we are a product of our current generation, I think, and to us, it inherently meant that it needed to be what people call ethical. But for us, it was kind of the default. So my background is Egyptian. So I kind of quit my job in New York and spent six months in Egypt for those months, I was living with the farms to kind of understand what their struggle was, and all that type of thing. And, and I really think that kind of time spent in that effort spent. I think customers really appreciate the authenticity of our story. The other thing is we have a brilliant and incredible I mean Mike Mike, one of my co founders is incredibly brilliant, creative and has a really great way of telling that story. And, and her entire creative team has been really great at that. But I think the core of it of kind of like it being true. And it being I actually think that we kind of understate what we do. But it is part of the DNA of the company. And I think that's what people are gonna gravitate towards and kind of are interested in and a part of the story success.
Eric Janssen
Cool. So part of what we'd like to do on these podcasts is get into some of the details here. So you, graze over, I left my job and we started this company and when lived on the fires for four months, six months. So how talk me through what you were doing before and how did you get this to a point where you were comfortable actually leaving your job to start this thing?
Rami Helali
So we had nothing done when I left my job so we didn't we didn't get it to no business plan. really honestly like kind of just Looking back now quite a naive idea. So I don't know if I'd recommend that for everyone listening, but it worked out for us. And it was kind of our story. And I'm very thankful that it worked out that way.
Eric Janssen
So what did you have? In the beginning when you first left?
Rami Helali
Well, honestly, like Ben, my co founder called me and said, Hey, you know, like how t shirts are either really expensive, and unaccessible, or kind of like not made well, and with shoddy ethics, I was like, yeah, this seems like enough to quit my job or, and, and did that. And looking back now I really objectively see how little that is. But maybe reflecting now what I did have is a trust in us as a team's ability and a conviction that I think my gut told us that kind of the the way things are made isn't Okay, and can't be the way things are made in the future in terms of the ethics and the impact on the environment. I think our gut said it even if we, at the time, if you'd asked me, I probably couldn't have put it in words, I think our gut told us that there was a an opportunity to do something different and kind of innovate on a supply chain, and the transparency and kind of ethics there. And the way that our business model kind of gives back without us having to kind of have a CSR team or whatever it may be. And at the same time, again, it was a trust in our my own ability and my partner's ability and kind of that thing.
Eric Janssen
So how did that conversation go? Because you had been working in your previous role for how long?
Rami Helali
Five, year four and a bit years.
Eric Janssen
So you were in good role? Kind of you mix of you said private equity in entertainment. Yeah, yeah. So really cool. Roll. Yeah, your friend calls you with an idea. And you at the drop of a hat, decide you want to be an entrepreneur.
Rami Helali
Listen, I always knew that I want to start my own business, it was always a thing. I mean, when I was here at Ivey, I took as many of those courses as possible. And and I always, you know, like, one of my co founders, Ben and I always just kind of bounce ideas off each other, and they're all terrible, like looking back now, you know, like, I remember one of us, Mackenzie, our third co founder, and Ben's wife, like makes fun of us. Like, we're like, oh, we're gonna start like an online laundry business. Like you go, like, whatever you drop it off, and like it exists now. Like, do I want to be doing laundry my whole life like, probably not. So I always knew I want to start my own business. I think for a while in kind of like my gut, something was boiling that like, Hey, this is a dream job. It really was, like I had a CEO at the, the company I worked at that was like, she's one of the most inspirational kind of people that I've been around, she was like, so smart. And so direct, and I respected how she conducted herself. And she really like, it felt like took me under her wing and kind of really taught me and like, I had a path to, I think a lot of success. And I was having a lot of success at a young age at the company, but just my gut told me like, you're gonna get comfortable, and like, this feels nice. And like, likely, at a certain point, it's gonna feel too nice to kind of give it up. So for a while, it kind of was like, in my gut, that, you know, the time might be coming if I was going to do it. And it just happened to be that that was the idea maybe that was kind of thrown out there during that period. The one thing I will say, though, is like I've always known that, like, the opportunity I was afforded, because my parents coming over here and immigrating here, as you know, and all that kind of thing. I always knew that, like, I wanted to take the things that I've learned, whether it's Ivey or and, you know, kind of my community here and, and do what I can to help in where my heritage is from. So I always also had that. But you know, this surprisingly, in kind of fashion, or retail was the way to kind of bridge all those different things. But it's funny how life shakes out. I mean, it's interesting, I couldn't have kind of written this out previously.
Eric Janssen
So spending a lot of time on the quitting part, but because people care about the details. How did that quit conversation go, I think I've had people quit on me. We've had to terminate people, there's, there's a good way in a bad way to do it. So how did you do it? And did you do it the right way?
Rami Helali
I'm not sure. I think again, I'd give a biased answer, I'm sure. But looking back now I remember feeling sick to my stomach for about a month before kind of like I was making that decision kind of I was leaning more and more towards like it happening. I think they had a lot of trust in me. And as kind of someone at a company now that has team members, I have a few people, you know, like I get it. Like if they left, it would feel like almost a betrayal. I don't know if they felt that way. I can't speak for them. I told them I'd work for as long as they need me to. I kind of gave him that option. I talked through it. I didn't end up working that long. Like they, you know, the transition happened relatively quickly. I remember like not sleeping for a couple days before having to do it. I remember like, relative like, I'm fortunate to not have to like I don't get nervous in those situations. I remember being extremely nervous because I felt like I was letting down kind of an older sister and older brother like kind of a parent figure or whatever it may be. And you know, I still I catch up with him every once in a while but the CEO, COO of that company and Not as much, you know, in the last year, probably as it has, but right after, I mean, we still talking for quite a bit.
Eric Janssen
Cool. That's helpful to know, I think the details matter. So you easy part to glaze over the story, I had this job and I quit and we moved on
Rami Helali
Oh, and the other thing I want to add here is like, I in my head was like, if this doesn't work, I'll go traveling. And like, I remember going to Egypt and not knowing how long I was going to stay. And I had a family wedding at the time and that kind of thing. And I remember going like, actually a friend of mine had booked me and a friend of mine, who's an Ivey classmate of mine, had booked six months in South America. And I was like, okay, maybe when I'm back, I'll do this. And within a week, it just kind of like the hooks were in and I just called him and I was like, dude, sorry, I'm not coming on this trip. And he's like, so I'm going away for six months by myself, like, I guess so. I'm sorry. And I never got a refund for that trip to Argentina. Actually,
Eric Janssen
So you so you gave up that trip in order to start?
Rami Helali
Yeah, it was like, oh, like, it wasn't like, I need to do this, I quit my job. And it's like, this romantic thing. It really wasn't like, that's a lot messier than that, you know, like, I think human emotion and how we're wired as a species a lot less clear cut than that. I mean, there's, there's so many considerations when you're making these decisions. So I mean, I, I would say to my, like, self, and I try to remind myself all the time, it's like, when you zoom out at all looks like, Oh, this happened. And then this happened. And obviously, it worked. Look at all those things that happened. But when you're in it, it's very often not that clear. And, and, it just happened and it sticking to it. And kind of like having that belief is kind of the reason I think why it happened. Cool. That's helpful.
Eric Janssen
So shifting gears, so now you, you quit your job, you're in Egypt. If you can go into the details, what did you do to start it? Because often, there's this big, intimidating, what do I do next? How do I prioritize? Like, how did you figure out what needed to get done next?
Rami Helali
So it's really funny, actually, I remember thinking in my head, and now it's kind of funny. But I remember thinking my head was like, how do you ship a thing? Like, how do you generate a label? Like, I remember that being a question like, how do you create a label, like, on a for on a commercial level? And like, stick them on packages? And how does that info happen to have to enter? I remember that being a sticking point, for whatever reason, my head like looking back now that's like, a two second thing. But anyways, I spent four months of those six months on the ground with the farms. What I did there is like, literally, I didn't really know, I knew no farmers. I knew no one who owned a farm, I literally drove it's about a three and a half hour drive from Cairo into this first place where we started in the Nile Delta. It's kind of like where the Nile splits into two in the north of the country. And creds is like this incredibly fertile Delta, which is where 100% of Egyptian coins have grown. And it's, it's kind of like how cognac can only come from cognac or champagne from champagne. It's like, the salinity in the air mixed with the fertility of the soil, because of the nutrients that come from Central Africa through the Nile, create this place where like the best coffee in the world can be grown. And I was like, I think I've heard of Egyptian cotton. Let's go figure out what this is. And I literally like, this isn't an exaggeration, like parked the car walked onto a farm like, Hey, who owns this place, and like, I'd get like, weird looks and like, get off my property. And that kind of thing. Until like, after doing this a few times, someone was like, oh, come and I'll talk to you and talk me through kind of their experience. And that person introduced me one more person and that kind of thing. There's no like, easy way to do these things, from my experiences, just like it's kind of just hard and just kind of have to do it. And just kind of like, most of the days are kind of bad. And you know, there's like that good day that gives you that energy that you felt like at the beginning that like makes you withstand the next 2030 bad days. And then you know, another good day. So yeah, I went to the farms understood kind of their struggle. And then from there, I was like, I guess what comes after the cotton, I guess yarn. So I went and like LinkedIn, like, who owns yarn companies? No one on my LinkedIn on yarn companies. Surprised? Yeah. Ask one person who introduced me to another person who were like, you know, 40, terrible meetings. And then you meet one kind of like, person, you're like, Oh, I feel like this person's honest. And it's gonna provide good quality. And then you do a little sample and whatever. And then from the RNA went to fabric, same thing, and then cut and sew same thing. And all of this, I'm trying to convince them to do like 200 t shirts, which is like, that's like sample room stuff. Like they like you're asking me do all this ethical stuff like that I've never heard about, and 200 t shirts. So that was a real big thing. I remember. I remember taking a weekend, my parents at the time lived or live in Dubai. So like, I went over there and I was like, This really isn't working blah, blah, blah. And my dad's like, Hey, listen, like I'm having lunch with some friends. I'd love to introduce you. And you know how parents like just proud of their kids and whatever. And I remember thinking my head like, I really don't want to go on I was like, whatever, I'll just go. And at that lunch, and I don't know, whatever you call this but after trying for like months to find a manufacturer like a cutting so one of his new friends. He had just moved there. He was like, Oh, I heard you're doing this like, family friend of mine owns the factory. I was like in my head like, this is another one of those things. Call the person the person Okay, I'm actually coming to Dubai in a day. I'll bring you all the samples you want and I'll do it exactly how you want and that's how it Kind of we found the final and kind of one of the more important pieces of that puzzle.
Eric Janssen
Wow mix of like, what do you call it luck meets opportunity or grace, whatever it is nice. So early days, you're getting your butt kicked, you know? Is this gonna work? Is this idea bad? Am I bad? All those thoughts? How did you push through that? Like, did you have a when you started? Do you have a vision for what you wanted it to be? Like did you have an idea of what once you got on the other side of it? What to look forward to? How did you?
Rami Helali
I always like, I think we have this habit of going like, if I just get there, everything's gonna be amazing. And then you get there and like, No, it's just, it's hard. But it's different kind of hard, right? So I think the thing that I've learned is like I'm so like, I feel so fortunate to have the problems that we have, like I tell I say this to our team all the time. Like, we get to wake up and solve really hard problems. They're really difficult. But like, that's really exciting. Like, would you rather just be going do the same thing over and over again, every day? Some people do. And that's fine. That's really great. Like, and I don't mean that in a condescending way, but like, we all understand what makes us tick. And like myself and the people on the team, and my partner's, like, I know, what makes us tick is like, this is really hard. And like, basically impossible. Let's take a shot, you know, like, and that's kind of the mentality. So to answer your question, do I, there wasn't like a thing, like, or a status where I felt like, if we got there, like, everything would be fine. But I did have a vision that like, I think that we can have profound impact on the ground to these people who I felt like were let down by the system. And I don't need to get into politics, but whatever it may be, didn't have opportunity, you had a really high illiteracy rate in the area, you had like, a lot more girls than boys that were illiterate. And and you know, going around around like, my mother and sister incredibly brilliant women, and motivated and driven and ambitious and, you know, taught me so much. And seeing that as like, oh, that literally could have been me a generation ago, was a strong motivator. I think all of us at cotton, the entire team, like, that's kind of the thing that keeps us going when it gets bad. Like you go visit these schools, you're like, you know, some of these girls, like we prioritized two to one in the schools that we built girls, two boys. And some of these girls, like, literally, I met like a year ago, when we open the school didn't could not read a word and like we were there a month ago. And I was like they're doing like multiplication on the board. And I had to kind of like, think about some of the problems. And they were going so quick. And I was like, Oh, damn, like, this is a thing like, so you know that that helps a lot.
Eric Janssen
So now you mentioned the schools just to be explicit. So now you are a part of educating the youth in that region. So maybe share a little bit about some of those goals.
Rami Helali
Yeah, so we, what we do is like, we have complete transparency and ethics in our supply chain with every single one of the partners we work with. And we make sure that and hold ourselves accountable by having third party people audit us like we don't even take our own word for it. Like we make sure that other people who are experts come in and make sure that we are doing what we say we're doing right. And that's really important. And we give back to these farmers through subsidies and guaranteed prices, right? We say to them, okay, we're gonna, at the end of the season, buy it at this much. So you have a guaranteed revenue. And we're going to decrease your expenses by providing whatever agricultural consultants, fertilizer, whatever it may be. So that all goes into our cogs. I mean, I don't think most people put that into their cost of goods sold. But we bake that into our actual margins over and above that, for us, our belief is for us to a exists and have an ecosystem in which people are thriving, and businesses are thriving, and people are treated with respect, we need to invest now in something that's going to create change in the next generation one after that. And through the work of the communities, we understood pretty quickly that like a lack of education is a really big problem access to early kind of elementary school. And early education is a problem. You know, sometimes the closest schools eight kilometers away, no car, the kids have to walk to three hour dangerous walk. So we determine Okay, this is what we're doing now. And we're gonna start building these community schools in the places in which we source our cotton and we think of it as not like, oh, Pat, us on the back, we're doing such a great thing. But for us to really have anything left probably in 100 years, I think these are the types of investments that we need to be making, as private businesses, and not just NGOs, and whatever government agencies wherever they may be.
Eric Janssen
So how does that investment that you make you said the investment in the schools is part of COGS?
Rami Helali
No. So the subsidies of the farms and guarantee prices part of the cogs outside of all that 2% of our revenue, minimum is goes to these programs got it. So you decided 2% your business model is included more than 2% of your revenue goes directly to those more minimum and we haven't, we haven't even gotten close to it's often been more than that. You know, we've we work with an NGO there that helps us like we fund the build the capex and the operational expenses, so everything, teacher salaries, and all that kind of thing. But then there's an NGO that like specializes with education to run the schools and train the teachers and that kind of thing. So we work and work on needs assessments of the community and we prioritize which community needs it and like we prioritize like, there's a lot of work that goes into that, but that all comes from that 2% We're a B Corp, which e Corp is one of those not only for profit businesses Yeah, it's like it's called a benefit corporation like benefit for all that. And it's like, we're actually quite a rigorous audit process to get a B Corp. Patagonia's like the most famous B Corp and all that. That was more like those things are good for consumers who don't want to spend the time researching. That kind of stamp means that someone else has done the research. They've done the work they've audited, they know that this is true. So that provides that which has been really helpful for us. But yeah, we kind of honestly, we hold ourselves to a pretty high standard on that front. It's really what motivates me. And I think the whole team.
Eric Janssen
Cool. So you've gone quite a long way you launched the business when?
Rami Helali
Yeah, almost four years ago now. Yeah. 14 1516 Wow. Okay, so
Eric Janssen
so new 2014 1516? Yeah, you went from strictly online to you said, How many physical retail?
Rami Helali
So we just finished up our one year in Soho in New York. And we're moving that to Brooklyn now. But right now we have Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, and probably another five coming in the next 18 months.
Eric Janssen
Awesome. So I picked up a few things that you do really well as a brand, if you just search cotton ktn. Yeah, you've done a phenomenal job of storytelling and of press coverage. So how did you get like, Where did that start? How did you first start to get coverage for cotton.
Rami Helali
We were talking about this earlier. But I remember we launched and we like posted on I posted on my Facebook and my co founders did the same like, go buy and like my mom and dad bought and my uncles and Ben's mom and Mackenzie's mom, and everyone bought and it was all great. And like Oh, did 6000 the first day I'm like, Oh, it's only up from here. And the next day, I was like two. And like 30 I was like a couple 100 bucks. And then third, fourth, fifth sixth day was just $0. Like no one is googling and at the time, it was co t co like, no one's googling that and like no one knows what that is. And I was like, Oh, so what now? And I remember having like a moment of panic, like, well, I don't even know what to do. Like, what comes next? And I kind of like broke it down. I'm like, Okay, well, I need more people to know about this and the people who are gatekeepers, and those people are breasts. So how do I get press and then I googled and I found a list that had like, I don't know, 1500 editors or something like that are journalists from like, every walk of life, like every type of publication, it was like 15 bucks or something like that. And I like by that. And I sent an individual email was not a blast. I remember because it said like, whatever it was the same subject line. And then I tailored each one. It's like I really enjoyed this article that you wrote. And it showed that I like actually thought about it a little bit. And I did 1500 of those. And I still have it in my sent. And I go back to those every once in a while and I'm having a bad day to being like, at least you don't send 1500 Press emails today. And I remember I think I got six or seven responses. And the first thing that wrote about or publication I wrote about was a thing called Mike shouts. I don't know if it still exists.
Eric Janssen
Thanks, Mike. Yeah, thanks
Rami Helali
Shout out Mike. And then I did a follow up to every whatever 1494 that hunter responded and then got like a couple more. And I think one of the first ones was maybe, inker, you know, what was highsnobiety? At the time, I can't really remember, but it's one of those and then that got another one. And that was the early days. And I'd literally just like honestly to the to probably an annoying point was like harassing these editors. Like, I wouldn't recommend doing that. But it worked on a few of them. And I remember TechCrunch and I won't mention the editors name because it probably so around. But I remember said like, hey, the article goes out tomorrow. I remember being like, Oh my god, like at the time. TechCrunch was like the thing everyone read, right? I was like, Oh my god, we're about to be so rich, right? And then the next day comes in, he didn't post it and I email He's like, yeah, sorry, just got caught up articles already written, hitting published it at 3pm. Again, nothing. And the guy just disappeared and never wrote the articles. I remember, like, those are such insane highs and lows. But that was how it was done at the beginning. And then eventually, we hired a PR agency that's like really, really great in the US and does this but I think you can't like have bad products with no story and no need for that product didn't expect coverage, I think you either not need to innovate with like the type of product or service or you have to differentiate if it's a space that is already quite, you know, busy, you have to have a differentiation and a reason for these people to speak about it and stepping in the editor or the journalist shoes. It really has been effective for me and all of us, I think as a team is we think about like, why would they talk about this, like it's a bunch of new colors? Like do you want to read about that? I don't really want to read about that. Okay, so the product is a bunch of new colors, right? They don't care how hard it was to get those colors like they're not in that. But actually like I mean, this we can speak to like this upcoming we're releasing like kinda like chinos and woven pants and that's a huge product release for us. I was like, does anyone care that there's more chinos? Probably not and then we thought about it I'm like, oh, but what we are one of one probably in the world is like I can tell you we're each individual fiber came from and Every single person that touched it and what condition they live in, and how much they make, and is that enough and how we're helping, like, we have complete transparency to the actual natural material, which I think is, is very unique. And that's what the rhetoric is gonna be about. And I mean, we'll see how much press we get about it. But historically, that's a compelling story to, to kind of tell.
Rami Helali
So that's, these are simple lessons, but not easy to grasp fully. But like, if you want to get coverage, have something worth covering?
Rami Helali
Yeah. And do the work for them
Eric Janssen
And do the work. Yeah, a lot of these news outlets, especially local news are gutted, there's very few people left. And if you can make their work easy, have something worth writing about and make it copy paste, if possible. Yes, have a higher likelihood.
Rami Helali
I literally have like an early press release that I touched that email. And I think like the first five articles were literally that release, like, as bad press release, like looking back now. Like I was bad. I was like, oh, man, these huge publications like really basically ran this. I mean, they put in their own flair, each journalist, they put in their like lens or whatever, maybe, but the heart of it, the content, the hard part is done for them, right.
Eric Janssen
Make it easy. Would you mind sharing what that email subject line was
Rami Helali
Yeah I have it here somewhere.
Eric Janssen
Because that's a big there's a the book on advertising by Ogilvy talks about if you don't sell it in your headline, then you've basically wasted your money. So 90% of people will read the headline, sorry, 90%, people only read the headline and will not read the body copy. So when it comes to email subjects, let's assume the same ratio that nine out of 10 people are never going to read the body unless
Rami Helali
I got it here. This looks like it went to the senior producer at CTV, I guess they're on the list. And the subject of the email is I quit my job in New York and lived on cotton farms in Egypt, all for the perfect tea. And I remember thinking like, if I got that email, I'd be like, What is this about? At least gonna skim it. Yeah, exactly. And then right away, I just acknowledge that they're busy, like, Hey, I'll keep this brief. Because I know you're super busy. And you get lots of these. Our story includes three new yorkers all originally from Toronto quitting their jobs, and a six month journey to Egypt, living on cotton farms and factories all to create the perfect T- shirt and save the Egyptian cotton industry from extinction.
Eric Janssen
That's the story though,
Rami Helali
Yeah, I guess I early on I, the instinct said, like, what I opened this email was the question I would ask myself, and I'm sure this is version five. I'm sure I've sent a few. And I remember downloading like one of those things where you could see if they opened email or not, and like using that as like, Oh, these are getting open more, I should use this. And I didn't know at the time that was called AV testing and all that startup jargon. But I remember just inherently understanding like, oh, like, just put them against each other and see which one wins.
Eric Janssen
Cool. So you've been covered in vogue Forbes Globe and Mail New York Times, Huffington Post GQ, a lot of local stuff, blog to how much of that how many of those came from just you rolling up your sleeves.
Rami Helali
Our biggest revenue generator from press to this day is a GQ article, I got month three. And it's the articles titled, these are like the white tea. These are the best white t shirts or like white t shirt, GQ staffers swear by or something like that every time people Google best white tea that comes up right at the top. And we're like the second one in that article. And that I actually remember very, very specifically how that happened. I, the journalist was at I want to say ink. And when I emailed him the first blast, he was like, Hey, I'm actually leaving next week. And moving to GQ. Like, this actually might be a really great thing. I was like, Hey, can I send you a sample right away, respond, like within two seconds is a guess. Or here's my address. And I sent it and I guess this guy moved before it got to him. And like three months later, this guy went back because he figured that there might be packages waiting from his old building. And this was one of them. And he opened it is Oh my God, this thing. emailed me was like, hey, like, there's a GQ thing coming out tomorrow. And I remember just seeing like our revenue, just like really, really go. I don't know how much we've made off that article like that specific mentioned, but it's like, it could be six figures, like I don't know, but it's, it's one of our top referrers. And this is like four years.
Eric Janssen
This is from old school roll.
Rami Helali
This was like three months and yeah, like just blasting and kind of like going back and circling back and like, trying to be like empathetic, and saying like, I know, I'm being annoying, like I'm really sorry and like, but like I really care about this. And this is something that's like really important. Sorry, not sorry.
Eric Janssen
Yeah, that kind of do the nice Canadian were always. So you've had some pretty notable successes. You've got four retail locations, the online businesses taking off. There's a other project that you folks are working on in a different space. It's very interesting. One of your keys success been so far? tough to boil it down? But is there anything that like, you can say? These few things we did really well.
Rami Helali
I think we're really quick learners. I think like, the team, like that we put together is like, super quick, like, we'll make a mistake, but we won't make it again. And like, we're quite good at that at pinpointing what went wrong, and making sure that's ingrained in all of us that that mistake can happen again, that's one thing. The other thing is like, honestly, and I don't know if this sounds cheesy, I can't tell but like, the team that we have is the reason for the company's success. And, and I mean that in the founding team, but also like, the first kind of like, five to 10 employees, like, honestly, I, they all treat the company like owners, because they are. I just feel incredibly fortunate to have like these driven, motivated, much smarter than I am people kind of all working towards the same thing. So find those people early on, and our very first employee applied for an internship. And I remember glancing over the resume and saying, no, this won't work and kind of like passing it off. And my co founder looked at it, and I was while I was away in Egypt hired her. And to this day, she's like, she was employee number one. And to this day, you know, a huge part of our success. And, and same thing with our first creative hire, same thing with like, the list goes on. So find those people be like, for us key success was learning quickly. And then I think, just generally, you just got to stick with it just hard. Like, it just is hard. And like, we kept thinking like, this is the silver bullet, we just turned this corner. And then like, all of a sudden, like, the millions come in with no additional effort. And this is it, like your problem is just change. Like the current challenge just goes from like, okay, I used to literally, there used to be a storage locker where we like had the T shirts, and I'd go from a house, like it was kind of depressing, to be honest, some days, like, just with a backpack, it's like raining and I just like put like, two t shirts that were ordered in the backpack and go and like mail them, you know, like that can be depressing. And like, I still kind of remember how the storage locker smelt like that sticks out in my mind. But you know, that seemed like the hardest thing ever. And then now like, we have teams across multiple countries, continents, cities, and like managing that and like, realizing that like, no, like they entrust you to help lead and help kind of guide the course. And that trust is like, it's kind of scary, like to be completely Frank, like some days, you know, things might not be going well, or like the bank account might be looking a little light and whatever it may be, and fundraising is going a little difficult. And you're like, man, I really hope I've never put in a position where I like feel like you've failed those people. So just knowing that it's gonna be hard. And I wish like I could go back and get back, it's always going to be kind of difficult one way or another. And just getting better at at kind of reacting, or not reacting often. To these things really is the kind of key success thing it's like, if you can just get better, like, you know, you put in the work, you can try to mitigate the risks, you can try to do all these things, but things happen in the way that they happen. And it's your job to react and, and look at it and be able to zoom out and go Okay, what does this mean for us? And that kind of thing. I mean, fortunately, we haven't had to kind of call it quits or anything like that. But just the ability to kind of reflect and kind of the interpersonal growth.
Eric Janssen
Cool. How do you find those people? So no doubt, you need to find great people. And a lot of people who have had some measure of success are saying it's the team. Yeah. Quick to give credit to the team? How did instead of generally, how can you? How did you find those people?
Rami Helali
I don't know, I honestly don't have an answer for that. I think about this, because we're at the point now we're hiring more and more people, like how do I make this a repeatable process? I guess this is where I've, this is where I'm at now, in this journey for that answer. I think doing things in the way that you want to be want it to be done, will attract the same kind of people. So if you are doing things terribly, and not being honest, and all those types things, you're probably gonna attract those types of people. And on the other hand, if if it's truly what you care about, and it's it's baked in the DNA of the company, and I think people can sense that. I think we have attracted those types of people. So yeah, we put out job postings and those types of things. And university websites for recent grads or a little more active recruiting for non research, like more senior positions and, and that kind of thing, but I don't know that we figured it out perfectly. I think we, my co founder, Ben's quite good at the interview process like setting up process that kind of like weeds out. And you get the right people that have the right attitude and aptitude and then it becomes kind of a gut thing and kind of asking the right questions. I mean, in my role as CEO, I kind of come in if it's not directly under one of my teams, like I'll come in at the end. And when there's a couple candidates and kind of have just a conversation, often not about anything technical. I have an instinct where I feel comfortable and I see like, Oh, this this person, I think is aligned and values and aligned and kind of what their North Star is. And that's kind of what we look for
Eric Janssen
Something I haven't tried yet. But since a lot of the people that we have on the show are still in the middle of their journeys, you've had, by many accounts, some good successes, but you're still working on growing the company. So what are your priorities right now? What are you working on? What's top of mind?
Rami Helali
So we have you alluded to this, but we have a new business division kind of a, I think you call it a plan B, a business that's come out of our original business that we're quite excited about. And I can quickly touch on that we had a bunch of these kind of companies that had similar mindsets, or the people running those company had similar mindset to our kind of be like business, B2C kind of consumer. And they went, Oh, like, we really like the quality of these t shirts, the ethics behind it, and the price point, can we use it to like print our logos, and whatever it is, and we had say, No, a lot at the beginning, because we're like, Okay, well, like, it doesn't help the brand and all that. And then we're like, oh, wait, this is a might be a big business, we look into it, it's actually a $20 billion business. And it's all this stuff in we're quite excited about. And we're going off to the opportunity now. So I'm spending a lot of time now. And we were having a chat before this, and I was kind of picking your brain on how to set up a sales process and kind of think through it. And see, I mean, we you said to me is like you just gotta roll up your sleeves and do it again, right? Like, you got to get into it and figure out what the customer is really liking and what is attractive to the customer, what isn't, why you've won the customers you have and why you haven't. So I'm going to be spending a lot of time doing that I spend quite a bit of time fundraising, I think you're you're faced with a choice early on either be patient. And I think that's a really great way to be Be patient know that the business might take 1015 years to build. And that's still not that long. On the grand scheme of things, or for there is a business reason, I think this is the advice I would give if there's a reason for the viability of your enterprise to go fast. Then he started becoming a bit dependent on outside capital, which provides its own risks, or kind of presents its own risks. So I guess, yeah, I spent a lot of time fundraising right now. Because we believe that this, one of the spaces that we're going after is going to be won in the next few years. And we need to be we we believe that we are the people to do that. So we're kind of running to do that. And then organizational design, I guess.
Eric Janssen
Cool. So something that again, relatively new podcasts, people are in the middle of their journey, this is going to go out to a lot of alumni, a lot of people in the entrepreneurship community. So if there's any requests that you have of the community, it would be right now your fundraising.
Rami Helali
Yeah, I think it's we haven't done like big structured announce rounds, we never announce how much we raise, like I just kind of, I never really, I get it from a recruiting perspective. So like, if you say we've raised $80 million, you might get higher talent that want more security, I get that. Otherwise, I kind of feel like it's an ego contest that I don't really want to be a part of, sometimes not everyone, but sometimes it can be. So we haven't announced raids and that kind of thing, we actually kind of like don't do these big structured rounds, we kind of like find the right partners that are aligned to both timeline and kind of where the North Star of the company is and share the vision. And we kind of taken the checks as they come in, based on alignment rather than like doing these big structure rounds. I'm sure we're gonna have to do a large structured round in the near future. But yes, we are, we are fundraising.
Eric Janssen
Okay, so people are interested, they can get in touch with you that for that reason, and then on your call it but not doing it justice, but the white labeled side on the emotional side of business, if there are any, it sounds like you're serving primarily companies in the 50 to 250 typically using some other
Rami Helali
Ill dinner or whoever it may be like low quality that's marked up because of like kind of the supply chain housing, how it exists right now. So it's often kind of the newer age companies, the digitally native or kind of like those types of companies have so far been our most frequent customers, but yeah, 50 to 50 kind of Toronto New York San Fran is how it's been
Eric Janssen
So next time you're putting on an event or any company t shirts may actually consider likely ordinary supply ordinary supply. So the two companies they find cotton online, best way to find you guys?
Rami Helali
Is just con calm or just at Keio tn on Instagram or co tn calm and then ordinary supplies. Same thing, ordinary supply calm or ordinary supply on Instagram.
Eric Janssen
And if someone were to reach out and had some way to help you this way, just through the website, and it'll find its way?
Rami Helali
Yeah, it'll find its way there's a general I think email, hello, icon calm and those are directed the right way. The other thing is we're hiring on a few different areas, both like operations, kind of sales and a few different places, both on the cotton and ordinary supply side. So maybe check out our careers page.
Eric Janssen
Perfect. Yeah. I'd love to do a follow up episode where we get to talk about you know, somebody had heard the podcast that led to the next handful of customers ordinary supply next row. Is there anything any advice that you give is my last question, any advice you'd give your 20 year old self so often? The students that are in the school, many of them are around 2025 years of age, many of them taking entrepreneurial classes. Is there anything that you're thinking about Man, I wish I would have learned this earlier or advice that you would give to romney sitting in those seats.
Rami Helali
I think I'd say perspective is everything in perspective, and how you internalize the filter in which you you deal with the events is everything, I've learned that things are gonna go wrong, things are gonna go well, you have X percent control, whatever that may be, are different people believe different percentages, but whatever that may be, and there's a maximum amount of effort you can put in. And everything else is purely perspective, a mistake can be, oh, my God, this is a disaster. Or it could be like, I'm never gonna do that, again, which is actually so valuable. Like, when we go through and try to figure out which channel works like, I want channels to fail, so that I know and I can peace of mind, say that'll never work. I'm done. Spending 1% brainpower there. So I think that perspective is really important. The other thing is like focus is really difficult. And there's a lot of opportunities that are present themselves when you're going through the path. And learning how to say no, is super, super valuable. It's been really great for us.
Eric Janssen
So you can say heck out of the things that actually?
Rami Helali
Exactly.
Eric Janssen
This has been awesome. I hope people get some value out of this session. And it's fantastic to have you in and tell your story. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Conclusion
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