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Brent Choi learnt the importance of being indispensable the hard way. Fired from his first four jobs, Brent began his recovery by relying on his work ethnic, and passion to find solutions.
“I’m not as talented as my competition, and so I have to outwork them,” said Brent. In our latest episode, Brent Choi, the CEO and Chief Creative Officer of DDB Canada, talks about the source of innovation, and creativity, and how it can be developed through passion and a desire to fix problems.
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The Ivey Entrepreneur Podcast is sponsored by Connie Clerici, QS ’08, and Closing the Gap Healthcare Group, Inc.
Transcript
You're listening to the Ivey entrepreneur podcast from the Pierre L. Morrissette Institute for Entrepreneurship at the Ivey Business School. In this series Ivey entrepreneur, and Ivey faculty member Eric Janssen will anchor the session
Eric Janssen
Brent, appreciate you sitting down and taking the time to have a conversation with us. Thanks for coming in.
Brent Choi
Yeah, it's awesome to be here. It's great to be back in the building that I've seen built up and never got to attend. Because it's pretty spectacular. I was saying it's like a Google building or something.
Eric Janssen
Yeah, Google building without the free lunches, but it is, the new students are definitely spoiled coming from the old building,
Brent Choi
You think what the tuition prices, they would give you some free lunch,
Eric Janssen
maybe they'll start building that introduction. So I'm excited to sit down with you for a bunch of reasons. One, I one thing I want to get to is the topic of innovation. But before we get there, you've had a really interesting career path. And I think there are some listeners who are out there who may not be sure what they want to do. And they're really nervous about the first thing, because that's going to ultimately dictate what they do for the rest of their lives. So I wondered if we'd be if you'd be okay with starting with, where were you when you were 22 years old? How did your career get started?
Brent Choi
Well, with business school and all your friends in the classes on where they're thinking of going does influence you. There's a lot of recruitment on campus from companies that everyone knows the brand names of, so you feel a little compelled to at least peek into that area. So there's all the ibanking and marketing companies and you interview for them. And even though you think maybe you don't have the grades, potentially for some of the ibanking jobs or the interest in some of the areas, but you still go down that path. I was lucky that between third and fourth year, I got a job for Molson breweries, in promotion. So I had a taste of marketing and, and maybe some creating some promotions and different things like that I was more of a handler and helper, but I got to see that. So when I graduated, I did investigate the advertising world, which I think Leo Burnett recruited on our campus in like the in the 90s. But there was no other advertising agency. So I, you know, basically, I think I clicked in a phone book, I don't remember exactly how there's no internet. So I found a few agencies, I reached out to them and had some interviews. And lucky enough, I got a job at one of them. But within that it was in the business side of advertising. So for those who don't know, it's called account service, you're basically a business manager, helping to run the advertising account. My Account was General Motors. So that was my starting point, it felt like it was the right sort of balance between my business school education and being in an industry is a bit more creative, which I've always had an interest in. And even through the business school time and IV, I definitely gravitated towards like the marketing classes versus the operations ones or the HR ones. So that was, um, it felt like a nice fit. But as it got into the business, I learned about advertising. And there's this whole other department, that's the creative department, which is, I won't say it's absent of business. But it's it's definitely using your creativity to come up with the ideas that's going to really help clients, businesses with from commercials to different ways to think about their product, innovation. And that was something that really excited me. So it didn't take me long, maybe 18 months or so, before I decided to put my portfolio together. And that's how you had to get a job before he showed a portfolio to different creative leaders. And they, based on that decide whether you're creative enough to work in the company. And I got lucky enough. Well, I didn't get lucky. I got lucky enough to be fired. From my counselors job which kick started me to get my portfolio together and then get a job in advertising creative fired on your
Eric Janssen
first real job out of Ivey
Brent Choi
Yes. Wow. Yes. And it actually goes on further in. I was fired. not proud of it. I wasn't proud of it then. But I in many ways. It's defined me today, I was fired from four out of my first five jobs. And that is, you know, it's funny in a way now, but it really helped me and, you know, people would think, oh, you must have been a real screw up or you told the boss off or what did you do? I actually in my heart of hearts don't believe I did anything wrong. One of the jobs there was a merger. So you know, a lot of duplication and to do some changes there. Another one's a major client left. So some staff reductions. I was Cognizant for that. Another new creative leader came in and they cleaned out the throat of the department and I was one of them. And a fourth one, there was my boss wanted to bring in a superstar talent and need to find Some salary money, and I was out on that one. So, case by case, you can rationalize, oh, it wasn't me. But looking back now, especially in the role I am, but also, you know, it didn't take me long, maybe like, well, it did take me long for my first five jobs to realize I wasn't making myself indispensable. I was doing an okay job. And that's what one of the best lessons I would tell people today is, you have to be indispensable. And that means, of course, doing your job but raising your hand to do more getting in front of the senior decision makers. So if there's like a big extra effort, pitch or initiative that people are asking for volunteers on like, raise your hand, do it be there at night helping if you have to go get coffee, if you have to, like do real work, whatever it is, be there. So the senior decision makers see your face because it's still a human business. And they look at a data line and see my name and someone else's name. They see nickel Brent. Oh, Brent's awesome. I remember him, he's a real go getter. We got to we got to keep him. And the other name might, like I did in the past fall off, because they just don't see me as indispensable. So it was something that early McCree was really hard. You can imagine trying to explain to your friends and family each time you get fired, that you might question whether you're in the right business or industry or whether you question yourself and try to explain to your parents they got fired again, your friends, your girlfriend, it's it's really tough on your self esteem. So I know your classes about grit, grit really, is something that you have to like, look deep inside yourself to to find your way or sort of roundabout answer that question, but my career did not start off. Well, like put that way.
Eric Janssen
So what was the self talk that you had after? I mean, one, one, you get like, okay, 234 What was the the self talk was? Is Alright, I'm just gonna go back at it again. Like, what? What did you tell yourself?
Brent Choi
Man, you got it, you question yourself, for sure. I mean, it's almost blocked out in my head. But I can, I can still remember there are times like, I think I need to get a job as a waiter. Like just to regroup. Because you have to actually pay rent still, right. And as a mid 20s 26 year old kid, still got to go to a bar, you still got to go on a road trip here and there as you can ask your parents for money. So it's, you know, trying to balance financial obligations. You have to give the aura to your friends that you're still doing stuff. So there's, you can't see me but I'm air quotes of freelance. So people say, Oh, you're just freelancing and consulting, but you're really unemployed,
Eric Janssen
starting my own business and starting your own?
Brent Choi
Yeah, sure. So there's a bit of that. But you Yeah, I question whether I'm in the right industry, whether I question whether it was good enough. But all those questions were great. Because it reaffirmed that I do love the business. And I was passionate about it. What I learned the most was that comment about indispensability if that's a word, but I wasn't doing enough. And then my next job, I dedicated myself to the to the role, and I said, I'm not going to get fired from this job, I would do everything I can. And I was about, I don't know, 28, or 29, I don't remember exactly. But I said, I'm going to work my butt off every night, every weekend, if there's anything to work on, I'm gonna volunteer for it. And through that, you learn a lot about yourself. But also you learn about how to do your job better. So like, oh, if I actually spent extra time on this, I can make this better. Or if I work on more things, and you have more time, you put more time into it, you get a better result. So there's a lot of actual learnings on how to do your job better. But there's also the just that commitment that the organization sees in how much you're dedicated to the good of the company. So that really launched my career, that next job and my whole mindset, and that's I can't say I work as hard today. But that has really changed how I approach everything is like you got to put in the time. I know that there's probably talk of millennials as I was looking for more work life balance. For me, it wasn't work life balance, it was work hard. And when you have time, then you have fun, but it's like you got to work hard and and everyone's got their own choices. But for me, I wanted my career to be awesome. And I love what I do. So it wasn't sure I'd rather go on a road trip with my friends. But if I'm working hard on a big thing for a client that's gonna everyone's gonna see I'm just as passionate about that, too.
Eric Janssen
So I have some guests coming in to talk about different chapters of their lives. And I'm seeing a pattern amongst people who have had some, at some point have had some good early career success and it often comes with just putting in the work in the beginning. Some people do end up taking their foot off the gas a little bit later on, but There's sort of a commonality that's coming up where they almost for a period of usually about 10 years, sort of fall off the face of the earth, they're consumed in their work, not because they, they do lose touch with everybody, but they love it, you know, they kind of lose themselves, they find themselves they figure out what they're good at what they're not good at. And that sort of sets up the next chapter. So was that How long did that chapter last call it you were late 20s. When you started that, how long did that chapter go on for
Brent Choi
probably a good 1015 years, I think. And this is maybe a bit of my losing for my first five jobs, psyche, but I never thought it was as good as anyone else. So you're always going into a situation thinking you're the underdog. There's so many talented people in my industry, but also just in the world. And you, when you compare yourself, like, wow, that person is amazing. They're gonna kill me in any head to head type of situation. So the only way I can win is to outwork them. So if you always go in with that mindset, probably a little unhealthy. But I have to, let's just take any project, if we both have three hours, they will win. But we don't have three hours, they have three hours, and they might go home, but I have all night, and my 12 hours will beat their three hours. So that is, I still think about it today, I might have taken the gas off the pedal a little bit, wait, the pedal off the gas, whatever the foot off the pedal away, you know, whatever, a little bit, because once you have kids, it's a bit harder to work all weekend and all night, my wife has been awesome in in taking on so much too. And I obviously wouldn't have been able to do it without her. But I still believe when there's moments that you have to you have to put everything to the side. So there's a major project do I give my wife a heads up, my family sort of knows gave for the next month brands pretty much going to be at work. And because it's competitive, there's a lot at stake in my role. Now there's lots of people's lots of jobs at stake that are depending on me. So you have to do that. Plus, I know that that's how you get the work better to like you got to spend the time on it. So it's at all perfect storm combined city, if you work at it, and work harder, there's good results all around.
Eric Janssen
So you spend a lot of your time now I didn't know you were dual hats in your role at DDB. Maybe you could let's let's get to the next phase. So when you you started really working hard. This was your sixth, fourth, fifth sixth job call it figured out what it was what your success formula looked like. And then it was mostly then creative work that you got involved in is that you spend most of your time on the creative side, then you're in that new role.
Brent Choi
Yeah, I was just talking to Sharon Hutchison, the your dean here. And I was telling her for the first I'll say 15 years of my career I I told no one that I went to Ivy, because being a business, graduate Business School graduate, I was having an economics degree doesn't give you that impression of Oh, that person so creative, which we have to change. I mean, as as creativity is critical to business, but I was ashamed to tell people I have economics and business degree. So focusing on creative and early on it was about disruption and being different and thinking about things differently. But as I got more senior, you had more client responsibility, and you were in charge of more people and culture and capabilities, then all of the business school learning started becoming more applicable to me. So it's almost like early, mid career, creativity is more important. And some of the learnings I had in school were less important, but as a every year and every time I got a promotion or a new senior role. The Ivey education became more important. I mean, today I'm involved with HR operations, finance, as well as culture and people and you know, international things. It's It's It's so important today. So that's that's the tricky balance is early in your career, you, you might not use some of the stuff but it's important to have that foundation as you rise in the ranks to
Eric Janssen
so you've risen maybe let's fast forward to your role today. So what is it that you spend most of your time on today? And what is DDB do
Brent Choi
so DDB is an advertising agency. But what advertising is today is very different than what from Mad Men when you watch those shows. DDB has a lot of it's a global network, lots of great clients. But what makes our office can our offices in Canada different than a lot of the DDB around the world but also the changing landscape in advertising. Data is so critical. So we have a very robust data analytics team. Almost everything you do starts with data, including CRM, customer relationship management, so really following in an almost a creepy way, your whole journey through the internet. We know everything about you may not be you, but might be just you know, your IP address or your, your Google, you know, all the places you go through Google. But we know so much Facebook knows so much. It's It's scary. So managing all that. But then it goes into not only mass advertising, but shopper marketing, I think everything that the e commerce sites are doing today is ugly, I used to believe that the TV spot was a big thing to drive awareness, and then you have to drive in store to get them to buy something. But I've gotten so many things. For example, on Instagram, where you see for the first time, you've never even seen this thing before you read the review, you watch the little video, and then e commerce buy it right there in a minute and a half. I've never seen it before, and I buy it. So that's the kind of change that's really happening now. And all the data we just learned from that. Everyone that is on Instagram, from a company standpoint, know that you own a dog now, and you watch this video, and then you just bought this, and you maybe didn't buy at that time, but you stayed on it for a minute and a half. So everyone that has a dog product, suddenly he's buying the rights to advertise to you. So that all that data analytics, the loyalty, the e commerce, PR is so big now, like, we talked about social media, and there's a lot of talk about fake news and all that stuff. Everyone needs to hear and see about bite size moments that are promoting or putting brands in the public eye. So those are big parts of the story that we work with to So pretty much brands now. It used to be paid advertising, TV and newspaper or radio. But now it's, it's everything. And we have to be one of the expressions we use at our office is every moment is a moment of truth. Because from an email to an app experience, to a website, to a store experience to a PR event to you know, watching a movie and you see the trailer or a commercial there. All of those are moments that we can really affect how someone thinks about a brand. And clients are looking for us to really pick the right moments and be meaningful there. And now everything's about conversion. So we have to get people to actually buy can't do those three year in three years of buy because they love the emotion of a BMW. It's no it needs to buy like before Christmas.
Eric Janssen
It's like a fan of Ogilvy's work, right, we sell or else everything is conversion now. So what types of companies come to you and why do they hire you? What do you what problem do you solve for those companies? Well, it's
changed a lot. I think a lot of the big network agencies really made their way with CPG packaged goods, consumer packaged goods like the j&j, Johnson and Johnson p&g, Unilever, that's what it was the big marketing companies before. Now it's completely changed, they still have a huge role. But with things like Amazon and walmart.ca, they're those brands are finding it hard to compete. And so you can see their sales numbers and ad spend numbers really going down. At the same time, different tech companies, phone companies are really exploding. There's luxury brands, premium brands are really exploding fashion brands. So there's a lot of opportunity there. We have also food brands like food is food has always been big. But there seems to be a real learning that's happened where we can really promote food, from, you know, QSR, to delivery services to restaurant chains that have, you know, different delicacy that they promote. So foods become really a big part of culture now. Music, as as your business was like music is still strong, but also under major transformation. And, you know, one of our global CEO had a story last time she was here a couple weeks ago, she said, Every client of ours is under major transformation. And they're really looking to us as through innovation or parts have different ways to think about their business, to really give them an advantage against all their competitors, because it's Every business has changed. Education, as we're talking has changed dramatically. Music industries change. It's like every one that we can talk to or work with. They're they're thinking that their business is under complete. transformation. But it's everyone there isn't one that isn't.
Eric Janssen
And so they're hiring you to help them through that transition.
Brent Choi
Yeah, sorry, I didn't quite answer your question. There's, you know, they have to sell product or make money in you know, quarter by quarter now month to month. And how do we get before you do a TV And everyone sees it or because you're watching Grey's Anatomy or whatever it is. But now, people are spending their time differently. So how do you reach the right people targeted people with the right message? Do you have the right product offering? So we're working with them on from what the product is, to how the product is positioned to how to reach the people to convert them on it? And then even with that, how did the people who buy it become part of your promotion after that? And then how do you get them to buy it again, so the loyalty part of it, those are all things that we can help them with. And each client asks us for different things, or all those things or parts of those things. It's, it's a, some people say, it's a really difficult time for advertising agencies. But it's also an exciting time, like we build robots for clients, we've built prosthetic legs for clients. And we've done big TV spots for them as well. So creativity is being used in so many different ways. Now, like when, like, when I first came into business, creativity was applied through TV, and print ads, and radio, now we're coming up with acting machines where we're that, you know, facial recognition software's with, with, with a robot, the racist Usain Bolt that we created, it's in the world. And that's just some stuff I touched, the world is creating things that are curing diseases and helping people in third world countries to have light. We've seen that happen through advertising agencies, it's, it's it's a remarkable time, it's but it's a challenge time because the innovation that you primarily speak about, it's unknown. So how to as a business, how to pay for it. So when we say we want to do this for you, and clients don't even know how to use it yet, so they don't have to pay for it yet. So often, we do it as a prototyping, which is not a good business model, to prototype. And with prototype, there's lots of failure. So the cost of prototyping is not a good business model to sell one every 10 things you try to sell. But we have to still keep going because that innovation is what to get one of those to pop. It's everyone in the whole world wants to work with you.
Eric Janssen
So let's I want to get into that your actual How do you innovate? So I did some few friends in the in the business. And when I said I was gonna sit down and have a conversation with you. They had a lot of interesting things to say. So I'm wondering one that stood out? Well, I'll tell you afterwards. So one, one said he's done a ton of amazing work for a really long time. Well, firstly, he said he's, he's legendary in the industry. So done a ton of I said, what makes him legendary ton of amazing work for a very long time to be consistently that good is a really hard thing to do in advertising. A lot of creatives make their career on one great piece of work. He's been doing it for years, and he's always kept a very high bar. So these companies, why I thought you'd be really interesting to talk about innovation, because these companies come to you to help them innovate. And there's a lot of pressure, like, Alright, we're here, we know that you guys do this. Go innovate, help us innovate. So there's a huge expectation because you've done great work in the past. There's the pressure of having to deliver now for this next client. So how do you and your team come up with these innovative ideas?
Brent Choi
Well, it starts with great people, of course, I would say the one credit I'll give myself is, through the last, I'll say 1015 years, I feel like I have a good ability to recognize talent. And people in it might not be talent, that might be the wrong word. People who have the desire or the will to try to stand out and do something amazing. Because you can meet people and just by meeting them know that they just don't, at least at this stage of their career, have it in them to do what it takes. Someone should probably mean that first five jobs. So if someone looked at me, like he's going nowhere, that's a bit harsh, but you know, you meet people, you just that they had that spark, or that that passion where they're not gonna settle, and they're gonna, like a lot of this stuff is, after hours over the week, it's almost like a day job. And then innovation and over and above creativity is the evening job when when you have to order pizza in and you have to give up the weekend. And it might be weekends, several weekends in a row. And some people just want to be a part of that they want to be part of something really special. So recognizing those people is the starting point. Because last thing you wanna do is force people to do this stuff, and then they're not going to put in the effort that it takes. So once you have the people think it's important to create the vision or set the tone for the company that this is something that we believe in and that we will back. A lot of companies talk about innovation or doing something amazing for the world. And I've heard of many ad agencies, they have these get togethers where everyone throws in ideas as a brainstorm. And you know, there might be three or four really good ideas, but then it just sort of goes in a black hole and dies. For me, whenever I see a great idea, and I hope my company, and I met now, but definitely previous companies know that Brent really likes it, he'll find a way he'll invest in a, she'll put money behind it, he'll take it to clients and fight to sell it through. And it might not get through every time, but they know that I'll give him my all to make it happen. So creating that culture of like, yeah, if I put in the time and the effort and really work on this, then it has a chance to have life, the same time you have to work with clients and say, Okay, what are we really trying to do here? Or do you? Again, every client says, Yeah, we want ambition, we want innovation. And then when you say, what, if we had this for you, they're like, yeah, we don't have the budget for that, or no, we can't quite do that, which needs to have the incremental sale of 1%, and just need to get into loblaws on the shelf, like, you know, so, again, similar to recognizing talent, you have to recognize which clients have that ambition, like, they really want to make a name for themselves, they really have, they'll fight for it internally. Because often, you're not talking to the CEO, you're talking to a senior marketer who will have to go and fight for it, find the budget, find the funding, and also take a risk because it could fail. So these clients that are also kin to your vision of like, let's do something that's gonna, I don't wanna say, make your career but that you can be so proud of that you can look back over that year or two years and say, Yeah, we did that we did that together. And it was probably so hard. I was gonna say, inappropriate word there. But I, it was so hard. But that's when it's worth it. When when others fall down, and you are able to keep going. And that's why like the we talked about sports, Super Bowl, or Stanley Cup. Like, it's so hard to win. It's so hard. It's also so hard to do amazing, creative, innovative work. Like I'm sure that people who actually met with Google to create Google Maps. Not easy, not easy, you have to get every street in the world. You know, like, that's not an easy task. ways. Uber like these new inventions, new technologies, like not easy. So it goes for everything that we do, it's not easy to do great things, or else it wouldn't be worth it.
Eric Janssen
So if you were to plant a hidden camera in the office, a client comes in, I know, there's many other steps but says, Brent, we've got this problem, we are opportunity, we want you to help with it, they leave. Assuming you've set the right environment, people know that it's a safe place to be for their ideas, you've got the right people on the bus. What happens behind the scenes,
Brent Choi
I mean, there's a lot of strategic foundation that has to go into it. Like you have to understand the audience and the decision making. So let's assume you have all the strategy and and the consumer or the the user figured out.
Eric Janssen
But first, so the first then you're doing your own homework to figure out who the customer
Brent Choi
you're doing all that first doing all that or we're whether it's a user experience understanding or a customer purchase journey, so let's just I don't know, let's take cars, it's always an easy one. So if if you want to market a new car, it's coming out. It's some type of crossover vehicle, the hatchback and it's maybe it's electric or hybrid or something, you have to figure out who's gonna buy that car. And that's really interesting to think about cars, a lot of times, the buyer might be different from the marketing, target. Mini is a good example. Many, you advertise it as a young person's car, you know, 25 year old having fun, carefree lifestyle, but the buyers are in their late 40s. Because it's expensive. But the 40 year old that buys it wants to feel like a 25 year old. So you advertise 25 year olds in the lifestyle. And the fourth year goes, Yeah, I still got it. I'm 25 I should buy that car. So those are little small distinctions to figure out. You have to figure out the audience. And also if it's like a digital, if it's an app that you're creating, how are people going to use it? When are they gonna use it? You have to understand the whole competitive space. You have to understand the product, of course really well too, because what's the distinct thing about it that's going to stand out as a product fit to be marketed as it is does it have to be tweaked if it's an app or a technology? It's tough for something like Samsung or an iPhone, because that's so exclusively confidential, you can't affect it. But there are products that we work with clients that this is kind of it and we have to help them finish it. It's really missing this or the UX is off on this or and then it actually once the product is right. We have to tweak it for a different audience that we have to have different versions different colors, it would be an easy one. Naming is a big one. Naming is a big, like the product might be perfect. But if you get the wrong name, people just don't want to have it. So those are important things to think about. So there's a lot of a lot of questions we have to answer to know, I think there's a great expression to have the right answer, you have to know what question to ask. So what are we trying to solve? And those are often declined, doesn't drop it on your lap and walkway, it's really worked out together really early on in the proto beta stage, we work through it all. So when we get to the final stages, we have a really good understanding of where we need to go with the the product or the messaging,
Eric Janssen
you have a playbook on that, like these are this is kind of our way that we go about gathering in and or people on your team that are specialists in that. Yeah.
Brent Choi
Again, it depends on what the problem is, if it's a naming, basically, everything starts with our strategic group. So they're labeled are smart people who really understand consumers. And the street group has multiple types of people, then there's like researchers, there's user experience people, there are people who really understand consumers and their behaviors. And they would really take the problem and try to break it down to this is a maybe an overused word, but an insight. What's the real trigger here? From UX? It's pretty straightforward. And like, how are people going to use this product or this app or the experience? experimental event or something, but when you really get into someone's psyche, but what's really driving them? Whether it's something vain, you know, fashion? Or like, why are people actually buying an iPhone? versus a Samsung, or, or something? Why are people buying nice cars or more practical cars? Why are people going to this hospital versus that hospital? It always comes down to what's best? Often it isn't. And in research is tricky. Because if you ask people to always tell you the right answer that they should tell you. But that isn't always the truth. Someone actually I work with said, there's an interesting, there'd be an interesting study, to look at your social media profile, and your Google searches, and how different they would be. Because your social media profile, of course, has like, everything you want the world to see. But your Google searches are what's actually you're thinking about. So it could be depression, it could be having affair dating sites, you know, to helping your child who's struggling, but in social media, they're a superstar. So it was an interesting thing to think about that what people say and what people do or think are not aligned. So having great strategists that can uncover those things, is a really great ability to give us an advantage when we start talking to consumers, or users about how they're inexperienced something.
Eric Janssen
So it's not client leaves door closes behind them. Alright, let's get a pizza and Redbull and whiteboards and coming up with ideas. So
Brent Choi
there's a there's a whole process a whole strategic foundation that has to go into it. I mean, there are times when it's really condensed, like you, you might only have pizza on a whiteboard time to get something done. Because who knows what happened to cause the delays or the urgency to it, there might be another client launches a big news item in the press, and your client goes, Holy smokes, we need to be in market with this tomorrow. What's our best reaction to this? And that is those are tough situations to you. Because often it's a reaction and you're already you know, on your heels. So those things happen to you. It's also exciting to because whenever there's, you know, a challenge or a problem or you're under the gun, it often creates, you know, something extra special, too. Because everyone's everyone's willing to take a risk a bit more than right.
Eric Janssen
So let's assume we've done now, fast forward a bit. We've got the right team, the right environment, we've done our background homework, yeah. Now it comes time to start to maybe there's not but how do you actually start to come up with the idea?
Brent Choi
Yeah, sure. So then then you have traditionally may be called the creative department, which has expanded so greatly now to what is creative with a lot of different companies, from advertising to just in general are bringing different types of thinkers that are you become problem solvers. You can call them just have a have a knack for thinking about things differently, different approaches. So you're bringing these people who could be photographers, it could be prototype, or it could be coders. It could be writers, art directors, filmmakers, Bringing them in to K how do we, we know the audience or the target or the or the experience we want to create. We know the insight. Let's say it's it's 40 year old men want to feel young, again, I know is the insight and there's x product, then there's, you can do different ways. But we often do is have a sort of a kickoff brainstorm, that just gets almost the bad ideas out so we can understand what the world we're talking about is often the strategic group, if they're really good, we'll say, here's a bunch of thought starters already, you know, that will give us some material to even start on. Once you have that, often, at least the way we do it, we break off into separate groups, because groupthink happens, which sometimes is great, and everyone just gets really excited about something and you spend a lot of time on it, and it could really build. So that can be great. But often, it's not the best utilization of people, you don't get everyone thinking about what the subject matters are, but then it's best to sort of breakouts, go down their own path. And I personally like the competitive pneus of it all that people have to come back and say, I have these ideas, and someone else has these and like, oh, that one's better. And so you don't want to come back with in group. Everyone's gets credit and it's great. But sometimes having that little extra pressure of competition, really drive people to to give their all and back to that identifying the right person who really want to make their mark, not in a negative, carry down other's way, but just really want to prove themselves do something special, they'll just drive it a little extra, extra hard. So there's a whole section where people will work on their own thing, we might come back and do a share back, probably a creative leader, potential client come back and really sort of narrow, like, there might be 20 ideas. And like, you know, these eight really have some narrative. And number six, and seven are actually pretty close, maybe we bucket those together. And then we might read a brief, knowing what we see and learn. And maybe we took the insight, and just sort of tweaked to say, you know, what we actually worked on recently about, or work on a product for the holidays. And we briefed a bit more broadly. And we came back and there was these ideas that were much more narrow, like this is actually the idea. So then we re briefed everyone else on the tighter idea, and said, I want to only work on that. And then everyone worked on that and came back. And so sometimes it's not efficient. But for big, important projects, it's worthwhile to go through the exercise to see where everyone sort of goes to see if we actually have the right way in. And everyone work on that. And then once you have that, then you might narrow down to three or so ideas. And it all depends on the challenge was probably the client comes in, and you really talk it through on what's gonna be right and what's wrong. And then you have to explore the real viability of it, whether it's in production, or in a build timing, cost. These are all things that come into play as well. And what are the compromises you might have to make with timing or cost or even even on how the consumer might, it might take longer to really create the change that we want to persuade this one of these might be a bit further out. So it's like, we don't have time for that, even though it's better, we don't have time for it. So those are all depends on the KPI to figure out what the right path is forward. They might even like, do two or three, all three of them, it all depends on pick, none of them
Eric Janssen
send you back to the new back on Yeah,
Brent Choi
and that happens a lot, too.
Eric Janssen
So how big of a time period is that?
Brent Choi
Well, it could be six months, it could be a weekend. For our dimension one once you get to these days. Again, it was a bit easier, maybe 15 years ago. But now once you're thinking about ideas, you really have to think through execution. So from production, if it's a product, you have to really think about production timelines, if they make it in China, or in the US with a cost sort of the differences, quality, approvals for legal systems, government. So those are all things to consider as well. If it's more of a marketing thing, then you have to work with media companies see have a great idea for cinema, I don't know. And you're like, Ah, it's perfect to go with the New Avengers film or something. I'm making it up like you can, it's already sold out a lot of good one, we had an idea that we want to sell something in loblaws, a new product for loblaws. And the creative team like works so excited about the new thing. And then went to our shopper team, our retail team, like you've already missed the holiday season shoppers or loblaws have already bought in their whole holiday program in May. And it was June. So like oh, well that ideas out. So again, you have to understand where it's gonna go and the timing of that. And sometimes you don't know because you don't have the idea yet, we wouldn't have had the idea to sell in loblaws or Soviet or whatever, until you actually have the idea because you couldn't investigate the loblaws thing in advance because there was no idea to sell it in loblaws. So it's it's a lot of You don't know, until you have it. And then once you have it, you gotta figure out all the different permutations of actually making it and getting it out there to the world.
Eric Janssen
So when do you introduce those constraints? like would you bring if that idea of selling a major grocery store, whatever, blah, blah. So he says matter, before you brought that to the client, to see two sides of it, one is you bring it to them? And they say, Yeah, that sounds great. And then you come back and say, Sorry, actually, we looked into we can't do it,
Brent Choi
we would, we would have some experts in execution production building, that would give you a sense to say like, you know, that's really expensive, right? You know, you can't just build that with a 3d printer. It's a whole manufacturing process. And others will say, like, Yep, absolutely doable. I know the right guy who does that stuff, and there should be no problem. So there's a bit of, you have to go in with a bit of an idea. I will say, though, that depends on again, what the project is, he often it makes sense to have one that's more at the middle, I'll call it. So let's say you have a brief for something, you gotta come in with one that's like, pretty Bible, pretty doable on budget. Clients like Yep, that the same for the Safe, safe one, you got to have the safe one, you often present the safe one first, like, okay, so the client almost relaxes, Okay, I got it, push comes to shove, I could put that into market and I'll meet my numbers and everything be good, my bosses will be happy. And then you might push them late. But if you really want to try something, it'll cost X dollars more, but this could be really great for you. And then maybe there's one that's like, Okay, this is a shoot for the moon one that's gonna like change the whole world. So you would hope to have that type of sequencing, it doesn't always happen, you might have two that are the safe one. And again, you have to read the client, the client might be a safe guy or girl that says that you like don't even waste your time on number two, and three, just to like three of the first safe areas that are slightly different. And that's a, I don't call it a business decision. But it's an experience that senior people should know right away. If you're working with a company that's just known to be a bit safer. There's no use killing yourself on you know, a new rocket ship.
Eric Janssen
Do you think the clients, do you have favorites going in? I mean, when you go to those pitches,
Brent Choi
all you have to do do you? Do you
Eric Janssen
at all? Push them on it? You know, look, this is the safe one, we think it accomplishes your goals. This one's the team favorite.
Brent Choi
Yeah. Do you? Do you ever? For sure, it's probably pretty known that clients will ask you what your recommendation is. A good client partner will say what's your recommend? Because they trust you and and want to hear what you think? I think it's less than less, they might ask you out of courtesy, but they almost don't care what you think it's because it's their decision. So but we still do it because we still have our favorites. I think our body language tells you what to fear. Even if we said nothing the way you present it, the the support materials you build around it, it should be pretty obvious. But at the same time, I've been in presentations for ideas that our internal group is split on which ones people like as well. So those get a little tricky, because as the senior person you don't want to be like, well, it's I'm the senior person. So I'm telling you what everyone should like. So you can again, depending on the client, the relationship you have, you can say Well actually, you know Suzy really likes this one, but I really like this one so you can Can't go wrong, or the total cop out which I've used as well as like, depending on your goals. This one will do a great job of this and this one will do a great job of this. So you can't go wrong. Either one depending on what you want is your outcome.
Eric Janssen
How do you as a senior person weigh in on those? I always hesitant sometimes to weigh in speak too early? Because then people Oh, well. I mean, Brent's been in the business for so long, he's had a bunch of success like I can't. Now I can't get my idea because clearly, I think even now I think Brent's is better so do personally get involved in these i
Brent Choi
do i probably can be better at that. Because I can hide things I like or don't like. So you want to be respectful. And listen, I'm creative at heart. So I understand how hard it is to present ideas to not shoot it down so hard that people feel demoralized from it. Recently, my new work people have have given coined a phrase. It's called resting brain face. And apparently, it's what my face does when a kid is clearly disappointed. And which was it's very funny. It's It's sad for me to hear that a little bit because I really do get excited about work too. But my bar is high. So if there's acceptable stuff like yeah, okay, and my face may not show great enthusiasm, and there's stuff that's not good enough, most stuff is not good enough. And that's what your team wants from you to say that's not good enough. I think they don't want me to say that's good enough when they even know it's not good enough. And then the stuff that I love which which deal Feel from me, and they probably feel it too as they're presenting it. So yeah, I weigh in, there's definitely senior people who might be, you know, I don't wanna use word wrong, but less senior than me that I want to make sure that they have their credibility and their authority on question as well, because I'm not in every meeting, I don't want them to think, well, their opinion doesn't matter. It's only brands that matters. So I don't get involved with everything. You know, I'll pick my spots whether to disagree with someone because it's the end goal, or the war, not the battle. So, okay, yeah, I don't love this one. But, you know, Joe does. So I'll support Joe's idea here, even though I prefer the other idea. So you gotta be smart about when and where you might speak. Obviously, if it's a big deal, big moment, big revenue, you know, I gotta speak up. And really also, one of the things I've been working with one of my leaders now on is like, Don't, when you know something's off, don't give it time. Because it makes people spin. So if you have like three areas that you're pursuing, and you just no one's not there, even though you want to be nice to the person who really loves it, if you give them time with that, and think, yeah, it could be something they're not sure, then they're gonna spend another two days on that idea. Even though you know, these other two ideas are where the, the future is. So as a leader, you also have to make hard decisions just to save them from themselves. And that's, that's something that is important, too. That's good.
Eric Janssen
I found there was an old article written about you, and you said, there's paraphrasing, but sort of the team will come up with an idea. But then you talked about the process of crafting an idea until it becomes a great idea. What is that process? How do you turn good integrate?
Brent Choi
It's obviously iterative. And there's a lot of people get involved with it. But I think with anything, I think it was, again, dropping the Google conversation I had is someone comes up with, because I asked Google guys like, how do you know who came up with Google Maps? Like, it's such a great idea, or one of these, like, these amazing things that Google does Gmail who came up with GE, like, because who cares? Who came up with it? We all know that a people sat in the room for the next two years have built it. And I was like, that's really interesting. Because in advertising, the person who came up with the idea is the hero. And for Google's like, no, the AP will build it are, you know, we want to go to the moon? Great. Is that a great idea? No, there's people who actually had to make the rocket ship to get there. So that was a real new way for me to think about that. But it's, I think the tech industry has really helped our advertising industry to become more iterative, and just keep making it better. Whereas before, again, it was mostly in film situation or print you like, you spend so much time crafting, it's perfect. And you put it out there. So there it is our perfect masterpiece film. But nowadays, like here it is mostly, what do people think, okay, let's Okay, you don't like the ending? Let's change any, okay, you don't like this, let's fix this, people are dropping off, because our data shows they're not experiencing, they don't get the stage to the app. Okay, let's change that. So as a lot of data that helps us get better just user experience helps us get better. But I would say I think we all look and it's just human nature to look at stuff and says it's not quite good enough. So it's if you have the time you have the resources and money, you just keep pushing it till until he reaches a standard that you think is great if the product calls for that.
Eric Janssen
So on some specific ideas that have turned into great ideas, I mean, you want your team and your work, you've won a ton of awards, a lot of recognition. The another person I spoke to in the industry, this is a friend Spencer Dingell, I'd say a rising star in the creative space. I asked what was what was some of his favorite work that you've done. And the pain squad campaign for sickkids was one of his favorite campaigns to ever come out of Canada. So I know that one specifically you were talking about the creative is not a department. So it's not like, okay, bring in the creative people. Now we need to come up with ideas. So how did you? How did that come together? How did you source different ideas from different people in the organization?
Brent Choi
I'm really proud of the team on that one. It was so unorthodox, also how that created our IT person was married to a nurse at the sickkids Hospital. And they're talking about how there's these Paper Paper journals that kids with sicknesses have to fill out about how they feel pain, and they want to just move it all onto a palm upon like a Palm Pilot kind of thing. And the guy came so the IT guy said, Oh, yeah, they want us to move it all into a Palm Pilot kind of thing. And we're like, well, that's that's really doesn't seem to make any sense. So we went presented to Sick Kids, okay, we think there's a different way to do this. So they said okay, well Sure, like, what can we do that very little money. So a creative team started the project and said, and they had two ideas, let's make a, let's make it an iPhone, that has some interactivity to it, that can be a game because gaming was growing and kids like games and might get them. Because the challenge is people weren't filling out their data. And the data is important for helping them manage their sickness. Like where the pain was, how much pain it is pain after certain medications. So these are all important things for doctors to know. But kids are sick, and they don't want to do the journals to keep track of it all. So it's a real need. So the two games that they came up with is a game show. And the one was a detective idea. So, you know, we talked about drones, it was got to be the detective one. So we went presented this whole detective idea. And this gives Well, this is great. You can see how kids were involved. There'd be like levels from, you know, like private sergeant, Captain to full detective. And those are the soldiers the achievements. So it all made sense. And then we started to build it out. And we thought great if we had these missiles back to execution, these little videos that had someone come on say, hey, great job, Billy, like you filled out your thing for two days in a row, like you got promoted to, you know, Captain, in our one of our people, Staff said, Hey, found out about, Hey, I'm friends with some of the cast. This is now like, almost 10 years ago, but rookie blue, the TV show clean cop TV show, I could maybe talk to them, and see if some of them would be the people in it for sick kids for good cause. She told the idea to them, they thought that was great. But they're also friends with the cast of Flashpoint, which is another TV show cop show. And they said they would do it too. So suddenly had all these actors. Well known Canadian actors, one was actually a well known international actor from Flashpoint. And they did all these videos for free, no cost in full uniform. So the whole wardrobe team for rookie blue jeans and Flashpoint, all volunteer to get them all their gear ready to be dressed. Our IT guy also filmed it all. We filmed it on our agency rooftop. For some of them, I know some of them, we actually shot it on their set. I remember scenes where some of our creative teams and our staff are holding lighting gear, because there's no money. So there's no production team is literally our people holding lighting gear and those you know those big whiteboards to make sure there's no reflection, or we did that our own guys built the app, ourselves. And then we of course, did user testing with with the children and they loved it. And they gave us feedback on how to make it better. So it was, you know, creative people, our IT guy staff, the person who knew the Flashpoint people were our was our communications experts, or she had the connections there. Our CEO would invest time into this, or he was also a big part of by saying, Yeah, I don't mind spending all this time on this without really getting paid much for it. So it was it was a full agency effort to get it all together, obviously a great cause and we help kids manage their pain better. So it was great.
Eric Janssen
So do you think it's your you have an interesting role? I think it's unique in the agency world where you wear dual hats, right? Yes, yeah, the current role, you're responsible for both the business and the creative? Yes. So do you think that getting to also run the business side of things? Do you get to shape the culture have a bigger hand and hiring and have like a broader picture? And that is what helps you put resources or the right people towards the creative side? Like do these to help one another? In theory, yes? Or would you be better off with a creative person be better off spending 100% of the time on the creative?
Brent Choi
I think it depends. And I know it's a bit of a cop out answer. But the hope is in the plan, and the path is the dual role is helping us to be more creative with our product. Because I can have final say on where funding goes and time goes and what our culture is. I would say the creative person often is the lead in the culture for the agency anyway. But the challenge for me has been I'm not spending enough time on the things that I want to. I think that's everyone like you just don't, but for sure more so for me now, because creative in some ways Can someone else can do it. So the next in command people can sort of drive the creative, but big business decisions, financials, you know, the CEO has to be in those meetings. has been those big client meetings that are talking about, you know, fee and revenue, and we're looking at dealing with New York, the CFO is there like those, I can't send someone on my behalf. So I have to do those. And then whatever time is left, I can spend on the creative part. I wish he was more balanced, especially in an industry in a time where the credit is so important. So that is, but I'm only seven months into my new role. I think maybe the first seven months, I have to spend it on the things that are the most transformational for agency in how we work. I'm hoping that the percentages can skew more towards creative over the next year. That's the hope. And I think so there's a woman named Judy john, who is arguably the most successful creative leader Canada's ever had. She was at a place called Leo Burnett, and she was the CEO, CEO as well. So she really and I had, I was pretty good friends with her. And she would tell me, yeah, like, I knew that some of the key decisions I was making is really going to help affect our product to be better. And in my previous organizations, when I was the creative leader, I had a great CEO, too. So we were pretty in tune with some of the decisions we made. But I knew at the end of the day, it was her call my CEO, as a female, her call on that final decision outside of the creative realm. And I didn't always agree, right? So now it's, it's my call, right or wrong. And through my filter, of creative product, I'm making the decisions. So I think clients recognize when they're working with DDB. The chief creative is also the chief exec sends a message for everyone that comes works at organization, they know that's the case, too. So it starts to create the culture of, and this is our global positioning to we are doubling down on creativity. Our founders guy named Bill bernbach, who was really the gives credit to or he's given credit as, who brought the whole revolution of creativity in advertising, I think advertising before was, you know, like, basically announcements of what is new in product, but Bill bernbach, in the 60s, really brought in creativity as part of what advertising could be. So that's what our founder created. And our leaders globally are saying, we're in this whole world of data and analytics, and all these other things that are, you know, ai or whatever, creativity is still the thing that's going to move us forward, and we're clients really need from us. So I think it was a good decision for me, obviously, to take on this role in within this company.
Eric Janssen
So how do you figure out how to split your time then do Are there any hacks? Or hacks? That's the wrong word, but do you have any habits that you use to plan your weeks or days or allocate your time or decide what to focus on?
Brent Choi
I think the people I surround myself with really have to help me, the creative leaders have to like bring me in, in those key moments where they really think it's an important moment, I think the business side leaders also have to respect I might not be there all the time for them, because I'm focusing on something else, because they again, know that end result of our product is most important. So they might forgive me not being part of a financial call, or I'm in a, you know, big credit presentation. So I'm not in an operations meeting. So they might do a bit more as well, everyone's taken on a bit more. So I can do you know, not a good job on both.
Eric Janssen
So and what do you do to keep things are changing so quickly? in that space? What do you do to keep learning and stay relevant? Are you travel a lot? Are you reading a lot? What do you do to stay relevant?
Brent Choi
I think this goes against goes back to my being fired out of my first four, my first five job, I absolutely believe that if you don't stay relevant, and you can't contribute a lot, constantly that you're going to be left behind and be if you have to be indispensable, so I out of insecurity, or fear, partly unhealthy, try to keep up as much as I can. Because if I don't, like I'll be irrelevant. So in our industry, like I'm always reading about the latest thing, it's partly out of fascination because it's so exciting our industry and innovation and all the new things that are happening. But it's also because I know I have to and clients are looking for that from me. I have to have conversations with clients all the time and they look to me to be the one pushing them. I can't have clients tell me about a new technology that's coming out or marketing idea because then I then what good am I to them that they're looking for me for that at the same time. Like I really Enjoy as an agency positioning everywhere I've been to be the, as much as we can be the industry leader in the cutting edge. So all I'm always pushing my teams like, let's what's the latest thing? Let's keep pushing on that, again, trying to attract the right people that think about those things. So it's something that I want people to teach me, I keep learning, I do it for both good reasons, and maybe a bit of insecurity reasons.
Eric Janssen
You've won a ton of awards, including 25 kanlaon. Awards, top ads of the year, bunch of recognitions from Fast Company for top ads and innovation. Is there one campaign or award that stands out is doesn't have to be your proudest, but a really, really proud accomplishment.
Brent Choi
I think the sickkids one that you mentioned is important because it really changed, at least in Canada, what an ad agency could do, solving real user problems. It's tough because it has a bit of a that that thing of it's been 10 years or so since it's so what's the frequency bias or something? So, sometimes as much as I love innovation and technology, our team did a New York did a Rolex campaign for the Oscars that is so beautiful, and just amazing and engaging that I love that what they did there. We mentioned that prosthetic leg that we built came up with it's an amphibious prosthetic leg, it was the first one for a veteran. Typically, when you go swimming, you have to take off your prosthetic leg to go swimming, or put on another prosthetic leg that swims in one that walks. So again, an unmet need no one thought that that's even important, but our team had this idea, because you can't so people with with prosthetic legs can't do a triathlon because they have to put on different legs for swimming, for cycling for running. So the first idea was come up with the first triathlon prosthetic leg. Now there's a lot of rules in the Olympics and Paralympic games that don't allow you to do certain things. So okay, well, there's still a need here for people to come up with prosthetic legs. We've worked with this hospital hospital systems to invent the first amphibious prosthetic leg. So there's like, dozens of people in the USA now that have these legs that allow them to walk on the beach with their kid and then go run in the water and swim, which is amazing. It's amazing. Yeah,
Eric Janssen
I want to ask you quickly about celebrating with the team. So conversations, especially in the startup world that I've been a part of, you're moving so quick, and trying to grow so quickly that we often fail to stop and celebrate Yeah. Is there anything that you do as with your teams, when I guess the award shows are a great reason to stop and pop a bottle of champagne and celebrate with everybody? But what do you do to recognize when you you as a team do something? Well,
Brent Choi
well, but currently, for sure, there's there's monumental moments that happen that you can't help it celebrate. So a big award or a big client win as well or be campaign gets released. Those are obvious ones I would say. And of course, there's times of year like end of the year, celebration holiday party, or is usually a summer event as well that people come together for but are coming does a good job every month. We have it's called hotdog Friday. And everyone comes together and we celebrate people, we celebrate successes, we celebrate new hires, say goodbye to people that are leaving. And it's a great moment for everyone to just come together. And look, everyone in the eye once usually got their head down. So this is a moment where we can all see each other. It's called hot dog fighting, but it's not hot dogs, it's like a pretty good meal that we spend pretty good money on for people. It's got to be good enough food people come to it. So people come and they have a conversation might have a guest speaker that does it. So it's a great way, it may not be a celebration like rah rah, but it's a celebration of us coming together, which I think is important in our industry, because I was going to use her collaboration, but I actually sort of vetoed the word collaboration in our office, to change it to interdependence. Collaboration is helping interdependences we depend on each other, and we need each other to be successful, which is I think, a stronger word to create that desired result. But yeah, I don't. I would say overall, though, I don't think we do enough. To answer your question. I think our industry is in a difficult time, because the revenue isn't what it used to be. So sometimes celebrations cost money. If you're a big, great startup making lots of money, you might you might be able to have that big party and fly around to Disney World. But if we have a good summer party, then we'll we'll take that
Eric Janssen
That's good. I like hot dog Friday I had envisioned like barbecued hot dogs. But you you go a little bit. Yeah, but it's
Brent Choi
a good starting our founder went to a client lunch barbecue or something same as a frank Palmer. And the plan is whole barbecue event. But then actually, no one was working the barbecue. So he said, I'll do it. So he cooked hotdogs for everyone at this event, as a very senior person as client events. So he became famous like, Oh, yeah, he's the guy that ran the hot dog barbecue thing, because he said basically, like, if no one's gonna do it, I'll do it. So became hot dog Friday, we have the whole room dedicated, called Frank room, and it's got all these ketchup, tops that design his face, basically. So yeah, he was a pretty remarkable person.
Eric Janssen
That's awesome. Yeah. Last one. Is there any advice you'd give your college 25 year old self, if you could rewind the tape back to 25.
Brent Choi
I mean, my, my experiences were quite different. So I would say like, don't, don't give up. Keep at it. Knowing the word and netted out, stay the course don't get too down on yourself. You don't have to have it all figured out. And, of course, I would say maybe want to learn a bit quicker to work a bit harder. But I think life is pretty hard and probably harder today for the 25 year olds. So I don't know the status. But people change their jobs five times in their career or something like not even just companies like the actual career that they're doing. So I think it's pretty fair to say like, Don't put too much pressure on yourself. The world's the world's hard enough. So, you know, enjoy. Yeah,
Eric Janssen
that's good. Good advice. This has been great. Thank you so much for I know you've got a lot of demands on your time. So I really appreciate you absolutely down in scrape sharing some of your life lessons, and hopefully listeners find it quite valuable.
Brent Choi
Thanks again.
Introduction/Outro
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